Braking Points?

paxman · 15 Oct 2019

I recently qualified as a driver. A decent part of our training involved identifying shut-off and braking points. These can be anything: bridges, signal posts, crests - even, in one case, a particular puddle. For every station there are usually a couple of braking points in each direction depending on the rolling stock and whether you intend to come in stretched or bunched. It can be a real challenge spotting braking points in the fog or darkness.

I'm curious about UK practice. Do operators provide track-side markers or signs so drivers know where to start braking? Are there warning indicators for curves and speeds? Again, we had to memorise all those things using landmarks as cues

RailUK Forums

ComUtoR · 15 Oct 2019

Stretched of bunched ?

I'm not aware of any specific braking markers or warning indicators for curves. We do have Various trackside signage which is often used to assist in braking, we have speed reduction warning signs (where the speed drops by more than a third) but mostly, we drive by our route knowledge. Gained through experience of driving each route multiple times.

paxman · 15 Oct 2019

I figured route knowledge is still the linchpin of good driving regardless of where you are - but it's nice to know that UK railway companies go to the trouble of helping out with signage along the way. How many different tracks would a UK long-distance driver be expected to master?

'Stretched' and 'bunched' may well be local terms. Here, you stretch a train by braking the cars while powering the locomotive with the brakes released. It eliminates coupler slack and provides a smoother stop, but at the risk of losing a significant part of your overall braking power. It can be especially challenging through undulating terrain. You typically bunch a train by engaging the locomotive's dynamic brake, which forces the cars together, then applying the train brake.

Aivilo · 15 Oct 2019

A puddle? Not a marker I would be comfortable using.

During poor visibility all senses are used. It could be passing under a bridge and noticing a noise change or counting how many was notification you hear. On all circumstances and though if I am unsure of my location I'm on a go slow until I can gather my bearings

king_walnut · 15 Oct 2019

I don't know about the rest of the country, but in the Southern region we have things called coasting boards that can be used as a marker for shutting off power if you're stopping at the next station. We don't have anything formal for braking points though, that's all down to route knowledge.

Red1980 · 15 Oct 2019

A puddle as a braking point!? That's a bit worrying that an instructor has told you that.....let's hope for your sake he was using puddle as slang for something such as a lake or the sea.

bionic · 15 Oct 2019

Best braking points are fixed infrastructure such as AWS magnets, signals, speed boards, bridges, mileage posts etc. Two or three memory joggers for each station to be on the safe side in the fog.

I know a bloke who learned a new route and only went over it in the daytime. He had it in his head that the braking point for one station round a bend was a barn in a field. First time he drove the route it was dark, he didnt see the barn and ended up failing to call. Next to the barn is a banner repeater but in this guys head it was the barn, not the banner that he was braking on. He's the reason I use fixed railway infrastructure!

I remember once being told by a driver I was route learning with that the braking point for one station was a field of sheep!

GB · 15 Oct 2019

paxman said:
I figured route knowledge is still the linchpin of good driving regardless of where you are - but it's nice to know that UK railway companies go to the trouble of helping out with signage along the way. How many different tracks would a UK long-distance driver be expected to master?

'Stretched' and 'bunched' may well be local terms. Here, you stretch a train by braking the cars while powering the locomotive with the brakes released. It eliminates coupler slack and provides a smoother stop, but at the risk of losing a significant part of your overall braking power. It can be especially challenging through undulating terrain. You typically bunch a train by engaging the locomotive's dynamic brake, which forces the cars together, then applying the train brake.

Pretty sure most uk passenger stock has one of the various types of fixed coupling like Buckeye, Tightlock and Dellner, so excessive coupling play not much of a problem. Was always taught that you release brakes most of the way just before you come to a complete stop for a smother stop.

hexagon789 · 15 Oct 2019

GB said:
Was always taught that you release brakes most of the way just before you come to a complete stop for a smother stop.

Depends on the type of brake, in the US with the traditional direct-release air brake "power braking" was quite common on passenger trains.

Bigfoot · 15 Oct 2019

bionic said:
I remember once being told by a driver I was route learning with that the braking point for one station was a field of sheep!

When I was learning I was told to brake at the cow by one driver. Needless to say it was, the perfect place, however I've not seen a cow there since, nor one in the field.

As many say, track/lineside equipment/signs/fixed points are the best way.

baz962 · 15 Oct 2019

Bigfoot said:
When I was learning I was told to brake at the cow by one driver. Needless to say it was, the perfect place, however I've not seen a cow there since, nor one in the field.

As many say, track/lineside equipment/signs/fixed points are the best way.

Imagine if the cow started running just before you applied the brake .

choochoochoo · 15 Oct 2019

I always try and have a cautious bad visibility braking point/area a bit further back from my normal braking area.

This normally involves another cue/feature that can be seen/heard/felt when you can't see much outside. Eg Signal/AWS/Points/Change in direction/Tunnel/Neutral Section.

I do use trackside signs too, but I fear one day they might get taken down. Or if not taken down, fall down and never replaced.

When out with my DI, he'd pull down the blind on Driver's side so I could only see the 4 foot to test how well I knew the route.

PudseyBearHST · 15 Oct 2019

Let’s hope the orange Audi by Great Haywood doesn’t move otherwise TASS/TPWS will be having an absolute field day

WA_Driver · 16 Oct 2019

I would use braking zones rather than points. As in leaf fall season the Braking points you may have does take in consideration that you may not give yourself enough time & distance for you to stop at stations and also puts you at risk at stations where signals are held at danger for junctions/level crossing etc

And like what others have said: stick to fixed structures as again in poor weather conditions you know where you are and you aren’t to fixed on trying to find something rather than concentrating/prioritising on what’s ahead

paxman · 16 Oct 2019

hexagon789 said:
Depends on the type of brake, in the US with the traditional direct-release air brake "power braking" was quite common on passenger trains.

Around half our fleet uses A-7 or 26L brakes. In effect, you only get two attempts at air-braking for a stop - and heaven help you if you hit the end of the platform while your brake pipe is still recharging.

paxman · 16 Oct 2019

Many thanks for all your replies. It sounds as if the use of braking points - or zones, which is perhaps a better description - is universal. I'd thought that a rail system as modern as the UK's might employ some sort of dedicated track-side signage or electronic warning system. It's good to know that signal posts, bridges and even orange Audis still have their place!

hexagon789 · 16 Oct 2019

paxman said:
Around half our fleet uses A-7 or 26L brakes. In effect, you only get two attempts at air-braking for a stop - and heaven help you if you hit the end of the platform while your brake pipe is still recharging.

So purely direct-release air-braking on those then?

I presume the other half of the fleet has the option to work as graduated-release though?

Goingloco · 16 Oct 2019

And interesting topic and good luck paxman with the driving career.

We're week two of front end turning and have a different driver each week. It's interesting how thus far each driver has evolved their own unique driving style and use different markers for braking etc. They do make it appear quite straightforward but they all say that route knowledge is key and this takes time to build.

It does seem far more complex at night as the train lights do not offer a great deal of help!!

Red1980 · 16 Oct 2019

Goingloco said:
And interesting topic and good luck paxman with the driving career.

We're week two of front end turning and have a different driver each week. It's interesting how thus far each driver has evolved their own unique driving style and use different markers for braking etc. They do make it appear quite straightforward but they all say that route knowledge is key and this takes time to build.

It does seem far more complex at night as the train lights do not offer a great deal of help!!

The train lights aren't for us to see.....they're for us to BE seen hence why route knowledge is far more important than anything else.

westcoaster · 16 Oct 2019

Some stations do not have braking points. For us on Thameslink the core stations are brake when you feel like it as they are low line speed and all 12 car stops.

ComUtoR · 16 Oct 2019

westcoaster said:
Some stations do not have braking points. For us on Thameslink the core stations are brake when you feel like it as they are low line speed and all 12 car stops.

But do you have specific coasting points ?

You can coast into Pancras (RLU) by holding 30 into the curve then shutting off at the banner. For Farringdon I get 20 and shut off as I hit the gradient and come down nicely for the hidden RLU Mark.

Tomnick · 16 Oct 2019

I like to have a variety of markers for each station (or speed reduction), especially those with the higher speed on approach. Something obvious to draw my attention (just in case, you never know...) and maybe shut off, a well-consolidated 'outer' braking point to make doubly sure that I'm focussing on the station stop and maybe start braking on a rubbish rail or where we've got a bit of time to play with, maybe a 'normal' braking point, definitely a prominent 'last chance' braking point (that's still reasonably comfortable), a couple of intermediate features to check that the speed's coming down quickly enough too. Some of them are quite obscure because I know roughly where they are relative to the others and I can manage without them - there's a few dilapidated platelayers' huts that could collapse at any moment, a couple of prominent trees, a cottage "where the kitchen light is always on", the big motorhome that's always parked on the road parallel to the railway (they went away on holiday a few weeks ago!), the billboard that says "Jesus will save you" (but not if you're doing more than 40mph past it - even He can't save you then). They're easily remembered because there's a story attached to each one. I like the outer braking point and the 'last chance saloon' to be easy to pick out in any conditions though so that I can always fall back on them - signals, AWS magnets, level crossings, that sort of thing's ideal.

I remember being told the story of the trainee who proudly announced that he used a duck pond on land next to the railway as a braking point for one station. "Don't be so stupid," replied his instructor - "they could fill that duck pond in overnight! Use that big factory on the other side of the line instead." Sure enough, they went back over it the next week, and the duck pond was still there, opposite the rubble-strewn wasteland where the factory once stood before it was demolished over the weekend...

sw1ller · 16 Oct 2019

I had a great braking point in the long Sutton tunnel for Runcorn. The track was old and made many different sounds. As I got to the sound I wanted I’d start braking. But now, in their infinite wisdom, NR have improved the track and it’s much smoother! So now I have to think about what I’m doing!! No consideration at all!! :lol:

Red1980 · 16 Oct 2019

sw1ller said:
I had a great braking point in the long Sutton tunnel for Runcorn. The track was old and made many different sounds. As I got to the sound I wanted I’d start braking. But now, in their infinite wisdom, NR have improved the track and it’s much smoother! So now I have to think about what I’m doing!! No consideration at all!!

Runcorn or Runcorn east!? Wouldn't wanna get the braking point wrong for Runcorn east station that's for sure!

sw1ller · 16 Oct 2019

Red1980 said:
Runcorn or Runcorn east!? Wouldn't wanna get the braking point wrong for Runcorn east station that's for sure!

runcorn east, my mistake. Keep forgetting we do two stations now.

Grannyjoans · 16 Oct 2019

I'm curious about UK practice. Do operators provide track-side markers or signs so drivers know where to start braking

There are a few stations with "station ahead" boards but apart from that no

paxman · 17 Oct 2019

hexagon789 said:
So purely direct-release air-braking on those then?

I presume the other half of the fleet has the option to work as graduated-release though?

That's correct. Around half the fleet uses electro-pneumatic braking, allowing you to gradually release and apply brakes as circumstances warrant.

The rest of the fleet uses traditional air-brakes (A-7 or 26L). You can't decrease braking force with those: once they're on, your only options are to apply them harder (up to a maximum) or release them entirely, wait for the brake pipe to recharge, then re-apply. Fully recharging a brake pipe takes 10 to 15 seconds, which can seem like an eternity as the end of the platform looms into sight.

DaveTM · 17 Oct 2019

I drive mostly stopping services, so most of my driving is full power acceleration or braking. My Driver Instructor (DI) liked to take power to a certain landmark, and then brake from another landmark. When I did my competency assessment I pretty much used his coasting and braking points, and that seems to have satisfied the assessor.
However, since then, I have come to appreciate more that:
(1) not all units accelerate at the same rate, so if you always cut off at the same location, you cut off at all sorts of different speeds
(2) not all units brake equally, so if you are braking from 75mph on a unit with weak brakes, you are going to get a nasty surprise when the station comes into view,
(3) the signaller can complicate things hugely by stuffing up your approach with reds that clear late and leave you with a slow approach. If you are used to braking down from 85mph and instead you arrive at your braking point at only 30mph, you can spend an awfully long time wallowing around waiting for the station to appear...

Therefore I've actively changed my strategy. I now have a target speed between stations, a braking point for that speed, and in a lot of places I have a checkpoint where I expect to be down to a certain speed. Between A and B I know I can get to 45mph, and then brake at the milepost. Between C and D I know I can get to line speed of 70mph before braking at the viaduct; if I am not down to 40mph when I get to the bridge I need to add a bit more brake. Approaching E I would normally brake from 70mph at the bridge, but if I've been checked down beforehand, I know I can safely accelerate to 50mph before braking at the last signal before E.

One thing I still retain from my DI is that anything I use as a landmark has to be part of the railway infrastructure that is on or next to my line. He specifically told me that my assessor would not be impressed if I told him I braked on the third dead badger after the clump of pampas grass. I once found a coasting board on the opposite line was a perfect braking point for F; it turned out to be less than perfect when a train passing on the other line obscured it and once I realised I had missed it I had to use a load more brake than I am comfortable with.

The stations I find unpleasant though are those where there are no good landmarks. There are a couple where my foggy day plan is to accelerate to 55mph or 60mph, count to 10, brake down to 30mph (or less in fog with character), and then wallow around waiting for the station to appear with sod all respect to the timetable.

Red1980 · 17 Oct 2019

sw1ller said:
runcorn east, my mistake. Keep forgetting we do two stations now.

Yeah I definitely used to use the tunnel to my advantage there.

sw1ller · 17 Oct 2019

DaveTM said:
I drive mostly stopping services, so most of my driving is full power acceleration or braking. My Driver Instructor (DI) liked to take power to a certain landmark, and then brake from another landmark. When I did my competency assessment I pretty much used his coasting and braking points, and that seems to have satisfied the assessor.
However, since then, I have come to appreciate more that:
(1) not all units accelerate at the same rate, so if you always cut off at the same location, you cut off at all sorts of different speeds
(2) not all units brake equally, so if you are braking from 75mph on a unit with weak brakes, you are going to get a nasty surprise when the station comes into view,
(3) the signaller can complicate things hugely by stuffing up your approach with reds that clear late and leave you with a slow approach. If you are used to braking down from 85mph and instead you arrive at your braking point at only 30mph, you can spend an awfully long time wallowing around waiting for the station to appear...

Therefore I've actively changed my strategy. I now have a target speed between stations, a braking point for that speed, and in a lot of places I have a checkpoint where I expect to be down to a certain speed. Between A and B I know I can get to 45mph, and then brake at the milepost. Between C and D I know I can get to line speed of 70mph before braking at the viaduct; if I am not down to 40mph when I get to the bridge I need to add a bit more brake. Approaching E I would normally brake from 70mph at the bridge, but if I've been checked down beforehand, I know I can safely accelerate to 50mph before braking at the last signal before E.

One thing I still retain from my DI is that anything I use as a landmark has to be part of the railway infrastructure that is on or next to my line. He specifically told me that my assessor would not be impressed if I told him I braked on the third dead badger after the clump of pampas grass. I once found a coasting board on the opposite line was a perfect braking point for F; it turned out to be less than perfect when a train passing on the other line obscured it and once I realised I had missed it I had to use a load more brake than I am comfortable with.

The stations I find unpleasant though are those where there are no good landmarks. There are a couple where my foggy day plan is to accelerate to 55mph or 60mph, count to 10, brake down to 30mph (or less in fog with character), and then wallow around waiting for the station to appear with sod all respect to the timetable.

as far as I’m concerned, this is exactly how to drive this type of service. I do the same as you for the most part. It’s the fog you have to think about and using a rusty old tractor in a field as a braking point for Flint isn’t going to be any good in the soup!
All locations are different though, like you, there are places I use a counting technique. Sometimes it’s counting in seconds, others it’s counting signals after a specific location and other times it’s counting the clickicty clack of jointed rails. And having a target speed for various areas on your approach to stations helps massively.

I think having a varied style to your driving helps keep your mind active and keeps you alert. The people that make mistakes that I’m aware of have a strict driving style that doesn’t change from dry, slippy, fog or disruption. they’re too cautious and I think complacency sets in. Their argument being, it doesn’t matter if it’s suddenly slippery, they’re braking for that weather anyway. So the mind gets lazy over time. I like to brake differently depending on the weather and from what I’ve felt from my running brake test. There are other factors too, like you say, some units (within the same class) are much better than others and the difference is quite drastic.

Braking Points?

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