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First Trenitalia (Avanti!) WCML branding, naming and livery

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Bletchleyite

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Interestingly avantitrains.com/.co.uk have been bought as the NS severs point to the same NS severs for westcoastrail.co.uk

Interesting - quite a few of us thought it would be used as a train sub-brand - like the (presumed) 80x would be "LMS Avanti services" as distinct from "LMS Pendolino services" or "LMS Voyager services". But this looks rather like it might be the whole brand which is a change from what we've seen of late!

I suppose a classic brand might not work for HS2...
 
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PR1Berske

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So maybe "West Coast Rail - National" and "West Coast Rail - High Speed" ?
 

Bletchleyite

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So maybe "West Coast Rail - National" and "West Coast Rail - High Speed" ?

It's clearly going to have "avanti" in it somewhere! :)

I can imagine something like a red, white and green livery and something like "Avanti - travel with a bit of Italian flair" as a slogan?

(I'll send them the bill if they actually do that :D )
 

EE Andy b1

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Got it !
LMS Midland Express
LMS Scottish Express
LMS. Cymraeg Mynegi
LMS Merseyside Express
LMS. North West Express
LMS. Fylde Express
Etc etc...

Close, but maybe....

LMS Mancunian Pendolino Service
LMS Scottish Pendolino Service
LMS Merseyside Pendolino Service
LMS Merseyside Avanti Service
LMS Midlands Pendolino Service
LMS Fylde Avanti Service
LMS North Wales Avanti Duello Service
LMS Salop Avanti Duello Service

:D :lol:

But really probably not. :rolleyes:


It's clearly going to have "avanti" in it somewhere! :)

I can imagine something like a red, white and green livery

I agree with the livery.
 

cosmo

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"Heritage" brands I feel only really work if you can make it feel modern, and relevant to a modern railway, IMO. I just don't think that "London, Midland and Scottish" as is probably envisioned by the DaFT reflects the modern purpose of the West Coast mainline either. Heritage is good in moderation, but I feel it's becoming the norm now and it's creating this quasi-nationalisation feel.

Admittedly it's probably all so the DaFT can have more control and more consistent "brand" names as we move towards a contracted service rather then a franchise model, but if you ask me:

- GWR works because it feels modern, and reflects heritage nicely
- LNER works because it feels modern (though it's not really different from VTEC for obvious reasons) but doesn't have to rely on heritage
- EMR, while I admire the colour scheme, I feel is trying to be something it's not.

I fear that if First/Trenitalia are given the LMS "brand" to work with by the DaFT, it'll be this classic-style burgundy/maroon with yellow highlights/stripes and I just don't think it'll work.
 

MarkWiles

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People travelling oop north are going to have fun if the west coast line is branded Avanti, which if I remember my two years of learning Italian means "forward" or "onwards", then change to a local train run by Arriva which means "arrives"!
 

PR1Berske

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A thought occurs. If Rail North don't accept "LMS" because it doesn't mention "the north", are we going to enter a very British spat?
 

TT-ONR-NRN

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People travelling oop north are going to have fun if the west coast line is branded Avanti, which if I remember my two years of learning Italian means "forward" or "onwards", then change to a local train run by Arriva which means "arrives"!
Thinking about it, it is a really nice name for a brand compared to disgustingly drab LMS.

I thought they could make it look nice with the existing red, perhaps with a little green?

6BA6B6AA-CD67-4DE9-AEE0-FB89B6841BF9.png
 

transmanche

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People travelling oop north are going to have fun if the west coast line is branded Avanti, which if I remember my two years of learning Italian means "forward" or "onwards", then change to a local train run by Arriva which means "arrives"!
But totally irrelevant, as 'Arriva' is not part of the brand name.
 

MarkWiles

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But totally irrelevant, as 'Arriva' is not part of the brand name.

Sigh. I know that, I was pointing out the humour in having two potentially Italian brand names running alongside each other. However, if making your point has made you feel better, go for it.
 

cosmo

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A thought occurs. If Rail North don't accept "LMS" because it doesn't mention "the north", are we going to enter a very British spat?

I wouldn't rule it out...

LMNS (London, Midland, Northern and Scottish) doesn't have much ring to it though. London North Western Railway is already taken too!

Honestly, IMO just keeping the West Coast moniker is better - though West Coast Railway Company is also a no-go :D

If they were allowed to use the brand name in the title, a revival of First North Western could be in order as First Northern and Western perhaps?

Otherwise I'm plum out of ideas...!
 

Pete_uk

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LBM - London Birmingham & Manchester.

I would like to see a bright design as a lot of other liveries SEM quite dark
 

RealTrains07

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390/128 has started to be de-branded

virgin branding is gradually starting to go now
 

BillBlue80

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I just don’t see how LMS and LNWR and can coexist as the two of the major operators at London Euston. Brands want to create a strong individual identity. I still often refer to London North Western as London Midland, which doesn’t really matter as I know I’m talking about the operator of Class 350’s from Euston to Birmingham and Liverpool. I’m sure countless other regular travellers are the same in this regard.

It’s naturally hard to distinguish the two names as in my head I remember the said operator of Class 350’s by recalling London, followed by a region north of London. Having had London Midland announcements ring in my ears for many a year, a fairly minor change from Midland to North West doesn’t make me disassociate the London Midland Brand from that of London North Western.

If Virgin trains were rebranded to London Midland Scotland, many of the public would assume that the two West Coast operators had merged. Even more illogically for the public you would have London North Western railway primarily serving the Midlands, whilst London Midland served the North West of England in the form of Manchester, Warrington, Wigan, Preston, Lancaster, Crewe and Liverpool. Add in the fact that both operators, operate direct frequent services to Birmingham New Street and Liverpool and you’ve got the potential for mass public confusion. It will also create issues when they announce only London Midland tickets are valid on this service, as many an infrequent rail user half listening may wrongly assume from hearing the “London” bit that their London North Western ticket is valid.

Would the travelling public therefore also be more likely to see the sub brand of West Midlands trains as belonging to London Midland Scotland rather than London North Western railway. Using the abbreviations of LNWR and LMS for the operators doesn’t help lessen the confusion much either. Do you really want to go from having the strongest brand identity in the industry in Virgin to one so easily confused with the identity of your main competitor. If LNWR or West Midland trains receive negative media reporting for poor performance and service quality it has the potential to impact negatively on public perceptions of a TOC with a similar sounding name, operating on the same route network.

Intercity West Coast would distinguishes the speed advantage of the former Virgin franchise over LNER but doesn’t seem to be an option. It is clear Trenitalia have had great success in creating sub brands for their individual high speed train products. They use Freccia “arrow” for their high speed services, having Frecciarossa, Frecciargento and Frecciabianco. It would seem logical with the existing operator on the line already having the historical name/names associated with it that your brand plays on the contemporary and high speed. So Avanti as the main branding or maybe Avanti Pendolino/Avanti Voyage with a smaller powered by with the logos of First/Tentitalia. If HS2 comes along then you have a new Name for that fleet with the powered by with the logos of First/Tentitalia.
 
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Bletchleyite

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It sounds to me like the TOC will be called Avanti (nobody has after all registered azumatrains.co.uk). What they call the actual trains I don't know, I suspect Pendolino (it sounds Italian, after all), Voyager and...something else. Le Frecce? :D
 

Chiltern006

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I think LMS would be too confusing with LM brands still about, West Coast Trains/ West Coast Rail would be suitable as ot distinguishes between the two major TOCs out of Euston
 

PR1Berske

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I think LMS would be too confusing with LM brands still about, West Coast Trains/ West Coast Rail would be suitable as ot distinguishes between the two major TOCs out of Euston
"West Coast Rail" is the name of a heritage rail provider.
 

RealTrains07

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Yep reported as such 03rd October. A tester to see how long removal takes.
Wouldve put this on the 390 thread but I couldn’t find it. The search system on the forum is a nightmare

any news on when we will know any more of the new brand?
 

EE Andy b1

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Chiltern006

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West Coast Railways isn't a OFFICIAL TOC, as well it isn't considered a passenger TOC, it wouldn't be too confusing, if it's called WCT, West Coast Trains
 
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