• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Petition for Manchester Piccadilly platforms 15 & 16

Status
Not open for further replies.

Xenophon PCDGS

Veteran Member
Joined
17 Apr 2011
Messages
32,270
Location
A semi-rural part of north-west England
I've seen the plans for the new terminal Curzon St station in Birmingham. What are the plans for Manchester if HS2 gets the go-ahead ? Could Mayfield become the HS2 terminus ? And be linked to an expanded Piccadilly with P15/16 for through services.
Mayfield looks semi derelict so it would be nice to bring it back to life. Look what was achieved with St Pancras.

Can I refer you to my posting # 397 on this thread.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

VT 390

Established Member
Joined
7 Dec 2018
Messages
1,366
the site needs updating, water street junction not been added on
Yes I did notice it was out of date as the Ordsall Chord is not shown on there, but it does show the main Piccadilly-Oxford Road-Deansgate section.
 

Howardh

Established Member
Joined
17 May 2011
Messages
8,120
the site needs updating, water street junction not been added on
There's no through line for platform 5 @ Bolton. But anyway, fantastic to watch the trains "live" and see how late they are !!

A TPX train got stuck outside Bolton, and then disappeared!! Apparently there isn't a search party o_O
Edit, I've found it, just passed Kearsley :smile:

Wait - there's a TPX just left the tracks and is heading north o_Oo_Oo_O
EDIT Sorry, it's a Northern and it's now positioned itself on the Blackburn line:E
 
Last edited:

Greybeard33

Established Member
Joined
18 Feb 2012
Messages
4,229
Location
Greater Manchester
On the Styal Line issue, TPE should make additional calls at select stations similar to how Northern Connect services operate on a skip-stop basis. We're literally talking about no more than 5 minutes if that for a stop or two. These stops can be "padding" as platform capacity at Manchester Airport is starting to become an issue. Northern and TPE should come to a quid pro quo arrangement rather than the current arrangement of the stopping Northern service delaying TPE services and TPE services being prioritised over stopping services which results in lost revenue for Northern. Just yet another example of the fragmented nature of Britain's railways and the lack of vertical integration/thinking that ultimately affects passengers.
The December 2019 timetable includes changes to Styal line stopping patterns similar to your suggestions, as I pointed out several weeks ago in the relevant thread:
All these services have now been loaded. The Liverpool - Airport - Crewe stoppers and the Blackpool - Hazel Groves are pretty much unchanged.

The current northbound only calls at Gatley and Burnage are dropped from the Airport to Blackpools, with the turnaround time at the Airport increased from 7 to 10 minutes.

The Airport to Barrow/Windermere service takes over the northbound calls at Burnage, which gives this station a more even 2tph service pattern in both directions. But the southbound from Barrow/Windermere, which currently calls at both Burnage and Gatley, drops the Gatley call.

The TPE Airport - Redcar Central services take over the Gatley calls in both directions, so Gatley still gets 2tph as specified in the Northern TSR.

Edit: The Airport - Blackpool service is booked into Platform 1A at the Airport, so could be strengthened to a 6-car 331 formation without platform length issues.
 

Greybeard33

Established Member
Joined
18 Feb 2012
Messages
4,229
Location
Greater Manchester
I've seen the plans for the new terminal Curzon St station in Birmingham. What are the plans for Manchester if HS2 gets the go-ahead ? Could Mayfield become the HS2 terminus ? And be linked to an expanded Piccadilly with P15/16 for through services.
Mayfield looks semi derelict so it would be nice to bring it back to life. Look what was achieved with St Pancras.
See https://mayfieldmanchester.co.uk/ha...cation-submitted-for-first-phase-of-mayfield/ for the plans for redevelopment of the Mayfield site, which have the support of both Manchester City Council and TfGM. These do not not allow for future rail use.
The £1.4bn transformation of Mayfield into a vibrant, mixed-use neighbourhood in the heart of Manchester has taken a significant step forward with the submission of a planning application for the first phase of development at the site.

The application includes the creation of Mayfield Park - the city centre’s first new park in more than 100 years, which will be created on the banks of the River Medlock running through the heart of the 30-acre regeneration scheme. The first phase of development also includes a high quality, nine-storey, 70,000 sq ft office building overlooking the new park, and a 543-space multi-storey car park on the Baring Street site, with a separate application for a larger flagship 13-storey office building expected to be made this autumn.
Subject to planning consent, work will commence on the Mayfield development early in 2020. Watch this space.
 

Howardh

Established Member
Joined
17 May 2011
Messages
8,120
I'm sure this will have been posted before, but may be of interest to anyone joining the thread recently.

http://d3cez36w5wymxj.cloudfront.ne...cadilly-Platform-13-and-14-research-FINAL.pdf basically it's a presentation about what's wrong - and right - about 13/14, and to summarise - no seating areas on the platforms, cold and damp, overcrowded, pax not knowing where their train stops; solutions are to try to keep pax upstairs in the (so-called) "lounge" where there are seats (but not much warmer IMO!) and two types of information board, the regular ones + large screens with different colours to indicate when to leave for your train.

More bedtime reading (again, may have been linked to earlier) https://www.nic.org.uk/wp-content/u...-Piccadilly-Station-Redevelopment-Options.pdf
 

Jozhua

Established Member
Joined
6 Jan 2019
Messages
1,856
I'm sure this will have been posted before, but may be of interest to anyone joining the thread recently.

http://d3cez36w5wymxj.cloudfront.ne...cadilly-Platform-13-and-14-research-FINAL.pdf basically it's a presentation about what's wrong - and right - about 13/14, and to summarise - no seating areas on the platforms, cold and damp, overcrowded, pax not knowing where their train stops; solutions are to try to keep pax upstairs in the (so-called) "lounge" where there are seats (but not much warmer IMO!) and two types of information board, the regular ones + large screens with different colours to indicate when to leave for your train.

More bedtime reading (again, may have been linked to earlier) https://www.nic.org.uk/wp-content/u...-Piccadilly-Station-Redevelopment-Options.pdf

The Transport Focus PowerPoint is great, pretty much nails most of the issues.

The online opinions section was hilarious "I'd rather crawl to my destination on broken glass" resonated with me ...:lol: They are really awful and worse than the main shed, I live in the North of Manchester, so unfortunately these are the platforms I almost always use...

The other main issue it missed was that the screens tell you to go to the platforms and the train can still take 20 minutes to get in due to delays...:|

I'll sum up all the issues which make these platforms so purely hateful:
  1. Too many train movements, delays happen frequently.
  2. Too many passengers, platforms feel overcrowded, stressful and unsafe, also difficult to move around. The only benefit is the crowds keep you warm in winter...
  3. The platforms are exposed and cold, freezing drafts blow through both the platforms and waiting area.
  4. No seating on platforms and seating provision in the waiting area is a bit rubbish, many seats without backs and some wierd standing seats?
  5. Rubbish amenities at 13/14 end, WhSmith has closed down, just a costa and some small toilets with 1 cubicle in the mens.
  6. Difficult disabled acess, lifts are confusing and two lift journeys are needed to reach them, good luck finding the one up to the waiting area if you don't know the station... Also I've seen wheelchair bound people get stuck on the train past their stop due to crowding and assistance staff missing them.
  7. Oh yeah, they're really far from the entrance and people just stop on the travelators <(
  8. Oh have I mentioned they look grim? Yeah they look really gross.
  9. Red line and shouty people. Lots of shouting, lots of stress, lots of tears.
  10. No end in sight to the pain... :frown:
Yeah so basically they're terrible platforms and you'll have to spend a long time on them because your train will probably be delayed. :)

Edit: NOISY FREIGHT TRAINS, I love seeing them but I know they're delaying my train and I'm sure other passengers don't perticularly like hearing the freight cars loudly screech past them while being screamed at to stand behind the red line.
 

Mogster

Member
Joined
25 Sep 2018
Messages
902
I love the comment that says “feels like a different station ie Oxford Road”.

Oxford Road is worse, although access is easier.
 

Bantamzen

Established Member
Joined
4 Dec 2013
Messages
9,680
Location
Baildon, West Yorkshire
I'm sure this will have been posted before, but may be of interest to anyone joining the thread recently.

http://d3cez36w5wymxj.cloudfront.ne...cadilly-Platform-13-and-14-research-FINAL.pdf basically it's a presentation about what's wrong - and right - about 13/14, and to summarise - no seating areas on the platforms, cold and damp, overcrowded, pax not knowing where their train stops; solutions are to try to keep pax upstairs in the (so-called) "lounge" where there are seats (but not much warmer IMO!) and two types of information board, the regular ones + large screens with different colours to indicate when to leave for your train.

More bedtime reading (again, may have been linked to earlier) https://www.nic.org.uk/wp-content/u...-Piccadilly-Station-Redevelopment-Options.pdf

That was interesting reading, and it seems with a few tweaks the new information screens could be made to work very well. They are not going to stop the hardened commuter from going down before they are advised to, although a ticket check at the entrance to the platforms could resolve at least some of this (some that was done previously for a while I seem to remember). However the waiting area does need expanding, with perhaps better shielding from the cold in winter & a few more facilities, and maybe the departure screens repeated a couple of times around the area.
 

Howardh

Established Member
Joined
17 May 2011
Messages
8,120
I add to the overcrowding at Piccadilly 13/14 because if it's more convenient for me to catch a train at Oxford Road, I will go to Piccadilly to give me a better chance of a seat on the train (going NW). Case in point, NRE wherever possible advised anyone from the airport going my direction to change at Oxford Road, but as very few (if any) services start at Oxford Rd, we're bound to get off at Picc 13/14 to join the scrum.
 

Jozhua

Established Member
Joined
6 Jan 2019
Messages
1,856
That was interesting reading, and it seems with a few tweaks the new information screens could be made to work very well. They are not going to stop the hardened commuter from going down before they are advised to, although a ticket check at the entrance to the platforms could resolve at least some of this (some that was done previously for a while I seem to remember).

I don't think adding extra annoying steps to these platforms will help. This would be especially annoying if I have to run to connect to them which I often do from late trains arriving at Piccadilly.

I add to the overcrowding at Piccadilly 13/14 because if it's more convenient for me to catch a train at Oxford Road, I will go to Piccadilly to give me a better chance of a seat on the train (going NW). Case in point, NRE wherever possible advised anyone from the airport going my direction to change at Oxford Road, but as very few (if any) services start at Oxford Rd, we're bound to get off at Picc 13/14 to join the scrum.

I have heard stories of commuters going to Piccadilly just to be sure they'll fit on the train. This was reported on TV a few months ago I believe as well.

I now get advised to change at Stockport by NRE, which I have done a few times and it has been more comfortable. The waiting areas are actually warm for a start.
 

Killingworth

Established Member
Joined
30 May 2018
Messages
4,813
Location
Sheffield
I add to the overcrowding at Piccadilly 13/14 because if it's more convenient for me to catch a train at Oxford Road, I will go to Piccadilly to give me a better chance of a seat on the train (going NW). Case in point, NRE wherever possible advised anyone from the airport going my direction to change at Oxford Road, but as very few (if any) services start at Oxford Rd, we're bound to get off at Picc 13/14 to join the scrum.

On the other hand, passengers going east have learned that to get a seat on Liverpool-Norwich services you join at Oxford Road.

What difference longer trains will make is something that needs considering. At present a lot of the congestion is because too many people are getting into and out of too few doors to find too few seats. Plus too little space for luggage.
 

Jozhua

Established Member
Joined
6 Jan 2019
Messages
1,856
On the other hand, passengers going east have learned that to get a seat on Liverpool-Norwich services you join at Oxford Road.

What difference longer trains will make is something that needs considering. At present a lot of the congestion is because too many people are getting into and out of too few doors to find too few seats. Plus too little space for luggage.

Yes, this is what I now do, change at Oxford Road outbound and on Weekdays/Saturdays change at Stockport on the way back.

There is slightly less of a scrum at Oxford Road too, although you have to be quick to your seat before the Piccadilly chaos ensues!
 

Train jaune

Member
Joined
20 Nov 2011
Messages
102
Location
Lancaster
I'm just adding to the chaos. Oxford road is handy for me but not a cat in hell's chance of getting a seat on a train heading NW. So get a train heading east to piccadilly, wander down from platform 13 to 14 (getting some helpful advice at 100 decibels about not crossing the red line) and pick up a train heading back to Oxford road and all points NW
 

Bantamzen

Established Member
Joined
4 Dec 2013
Messages
9,680
Location
Baildon, West Yorkshire
I don't think adding extra annoying steps to these platforms will help. This would be especially annoying if I have to run to connect to them which I often do from late trains arriving at Piccadilly.

Its not about being annoying, its about trying to keep the number of passengers waiting for subsequent trains down, until such time that platform capacity can be increased.
 

Howardh

Established Member
Joined
17 May 2011
Messages
8,120
I'm just adding to the chaos. Oxford road is handy for me but not a cat in hell's chance of getting a seat on a train heading NW. So get a train heading east to piccadilly, wander down from platform 13 to 14 (getting some helpful advice at 100 decibels about not crossing the red line) and pick up a train heading back to Oxford road and all points NW
So that's twice the congestion - once at Oxford Rd and once at Piccadilly!!

It's a crazy, crazy situation; and until 13/14 is redeveloped there's no real solution - save for longer trains - other than one that won't happen, that is have trains calling at Oxford Road OR 13/14 only. I suppose more trains could terminate and begin from Oxford Road, it's a pity that one of the two spur platforms has been lost? Also through trains from the NW could go to Victoria instead, at personal inconvenience to me

Maybe the line's a victim of it's own success?
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,541
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
Is doubling back allowed on your ticket?

Doubling back between Deansgate, Oxford Road and Picc, while technically not allowed on a Manchester Stations/CTLZ ticket[1], is accepted practice and is not going to be subject to any kind of enforcement; there simply isn't scope to actually carry any out as there's not enough time between the stations nor space to carry it out on the platforms themselves.

[1] It IS allowed if you're changing there under the "doubling back is allowed within a station group" rule, provided you're not on an Advance on a booked train, but even that is not going to be enforced.
 

Howardh

Established Member
Joined
17 May 2011
Messages
8,120
Doubling back between Deansgate, Oxford Road and Picc, while technically not allowed on a Manchester Stations/CTLZ ticket[1], is accepted practice and is not going to be subject to any kind of enforcement; there simply isn't scope to actually carry any out as there's not enough time between the stations nor space to carry it out on the platforms themselves.

[1] It IS allowed if you're changing there under the "doubling back is allowed within a station group" rule, provided you're not on an Advance on a booked train, but even that is not going to be enforced.
If you are at Oxford Road and the train you want is from Picc and doesn't stop at Oxford Rd, then surely there wouldn't be a problem - however would a ticket (say) Piccadilly/Gasgow allow you through the gate at Oxford Rd to allow you to double back if it doesn't call at Oxfd. Rd?? *Note - not sure if any trains on that route don't stop; but hypothetically?
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,541
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
If you are at Oxford Road and the train you want is from Picc and doesn't stop at Oxford Rd, then surely there wouldn't be a problem

There won't be a problem anyway, but absent an official easement it's still officially a double-back - just as I can't double back from Bletchley via MKC to London (and that would be enforced as the fare from Bletchley is lower, though I've done it in disruption).

however would a ticket (say) Piccadilly/Gasgow allow you through the gate at Oxford Rd to allow you to double back? *Note - not sure if any trains on that route don't stop; but hypothetically?

Other than Advances (on which you have to do exactly what it says on the ticket and accompanying reservations) tickets are generally issued to/from Manchester Stations or Manchester Ctlz so this issue can't arise.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,541
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
Not just those, many airlines are moving to it hence the decline in the super heavy craft like the 747 & A380s.

There are plenty of 777-300ERs out there, which while single-deck are veritable people movers - Air Canada's seats 400, which is substantially more than BA's 345 in their most dense 747 layout, though admittedly with fairly narrow (but still decent) seats. So I don't think hub and spoke is dead quite yet, just older, less efficient craft.

I think the 380 (and 747) fell down on two counts - being just a little bit too big, and having 4 engines, so twice the maintenance and less fuel-efficient than a 2-engined aircraft.
 

gazzaa2

Member
Joined
2 May 2018
Messages
829
On the other hand, passengers going east have learned that to get a seat on Liverpool-Norwich services you join at Oxford Road.

What difference longer trains will make is something that needs considering. At present a lot of the congestion is because too many people are getting into and out of too few doors to find too few seats. Plus too little space for luggage.

If they had enough carriages on these services (TPEX, Northern, EMT) it'd be much less of a problem.

It's not uncommon for Liverpool-Norwich services to rock up with 2 carriages and TPEX never meet demand.
 

Killingworth

Established Member
Joined
30 May 2018
Messages
4,813
Location
Sheffield
If they had enough carriages on these services (TPEX, Northern, EMT) it'd be much less of a problem.

It's not uncommon for Liverpool-Norwich services to rock up with 2 carriages and TPEX never meet demand.

TPE are, supposedly, resolving that over the next 12 months. We may then run into problems with lack of platform space at the Airport causing a back up of trains that may need to be terminated at...... ah! Leave half the train at Piccadilly.

Liverpool-Norwich is supposed to be 4, but often 2. At 4 it can cope for most of the day. If a TPE preceeding service is cancelled or badly delayed even 4 is tight. If it is cancelled, or very late, a 3 car 185 from TPE is swamped. Northern get the backwash from this when a single Pacer in turn gets swamped. Smoothly integrated it's not. Passengers dash from platform to platform to find a train and possibly a seat.

Longer trains reliably runnng to time would quickly ease congestion as a virtuous circle developed. One day.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top