ScotRail HST Introduction - Updates & Discussion

Voyager lad · 15 Oct 2019

Today I travelled from Glasgow - Stirling on the 0941 which was a refurb inter7city. However as nice as it was, it generally felt like the whole project was a waste as the end product is a train that is nice but not specifically amazing. Sure it was comfortable enough, the acceleration was great etc. But it was just good, it didn’t excite me like other projects have. And considering the amount of money and time being put in, as well as the amount of short forms etc just doesn’t seem to be justifiable for such an average end product

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Northhighland · 15 Oct 2019

Killingworth said:
Statistics aren't readily available to confirm overcrowding levels, but they are to work out the numbers of late trains.

Taking Aviemore as an example I see it comes at 2619th out of 2623 UK stations for punctuality, and neighbouring stations are very similar, 6 in the worst 10. See Ontime Trains

I couldn't help spotting this when noting that all the Hope Valley line stations are in the bottom 100 and wondered where it was worse!

No wish to be disrespectful, but if you have to travel 3.5 hours from Edinburgh/ Glasgow to Inverness getting a seat is way more important than a few minutes late.

Punctuality isn’t as important as capacity. Not to any HML passenger I know.

Northhighland · 15 Oct 2019

Bletchleyite said:
The large numbers of tables on the various CAF stock being introduced in the North would seem to solve that problem. A bit of Class 195 riding at the weekend seemed to feature lots of happy people sat being sociable around tables. That's more what rail travel should feel like. The table bays even have good legroom so no games of kneesie with a stranger should you be sitting opposite one, and there are some airline seats too if you like those (about 2/3 tables, 1/3 airline on the 195s for example). And huge overhead racks, so your bags can go above you rather than worrying about who's nicking them out of the vestibule.

Maybe some of that would suit instead. A diesel version of the WCML EMUs perhaps as a follow-on order?

Class 195 still has doors in middle of carriage not suitable for HML. Leaves you cold at every stop in the winter. Just not a suitable design for Highland weather.

But interiors ok.

Killingworth · 15 Oct 2019

Northhighland said:
No wish to be disrespectful, but if you have to travel 3.5 hours from Edinburgh/ Glasgow to Inverness getting a seat is way more important than a few minutes late.

Punctuality isn’t as important as capacity. Not to any HML passenger I know.

I'd agree. In the good old days I recall journeys in the Highlands when you got a choice of compartment.......... Short forming, cancelled trains and lack of capacity are a nationwide issue, but even standing for 30 minutes is bad. Over 3 hours is ludicrous and dangerous. I note passenger numbers in the Highlands are not going up, and with that situation they won't.

haggishunter · 15 Oct 2019

Have not long arrived in Queen Street, the new seated sleeper coach makes for a very pleasant day train trip on the West Highland Line. Single airline seat with plug and deep spacious overhead luggage rack and a hot meal and cold beer suited my perfectly as a solo traveler on this occasion.

But of course both the Mk5 fleets have had plenty of problems and are way late entering service, so it’s not clear at all we’d be any better off had the new stock route been taken. New stock now would take so long to get into service the HSTs have to made to work.

On reasonable track the Mk5s were very smooth and quiet, but there were some bits particularly North of Bridge or Orchy where the ride was definitely notably worse than Mk3s so the HSTs do have some advantages.

Highland37 · 15 Oct 2019

The HSTs are hardly in service. Regardless of quality, a train available for use is always going to be superior.

Mitchell Hurd · 15 Oct 2019

Northhighland said:
No wish to be disrespectful, but if you have to travel 3.5 hours from Edinburgh/ Glasgow to Inverness getting a seat is way more important than a few minutes late.

Punctuality isn’t as important as capacity. Not to any HML passenger I know.

Thank you - I'm glad I'mnot the only one in full agreement. if I ever make my first trip north of Edinburgh (to Aberdeen) next year on a Scotrail HST, First Class, I personally much prefer the HST ran a bit late and get my reserved First Class seat in the ex-GWR First Class interiors than it replaced by a 158 (no First Class) or 170 (less First Class seats and a reduced First Class experience) on time or up to that.

I believe Scotrail HST's on the Edinburgh to Aberdeen line have a layover of like 60-70 minutes.

CEN60 · 15 Oct 2019

While i would also prefer an HST - you need to be mindful of connections to the Kyle Line - so a late running HST isn't going to make the 6min connection at Inverness!! So HST yes - but an on time HST definitely yes!

Mitchell Hurd · 15 Oct 2019

CEN60 said:
While i would also prefer an HST - you need to be mindful of connections to the Kyle Line - so a late running HST isn't going to make the 6min connection at Inverness!! So HST yes - but an on time HST definitely yes!

That's true, yes.

Bringback309s · 15 Oct 2019

Voyager lad said:
Today I travelled from Glasgow - Stirling on the 0941 which was a refurb inter7city. However as nice as it was, it generally felt like the whole project was a waste as the end product is a train that is nice but not specifically amazing. Sure it was comfortable enough, the acceleration was great etc. But it was just good, it didn’t excite me like other projects have. And considering the amount of money and time being put in, as well as the amount of short forms etc just doesn’t seem to be justifiable for such an average end product

I've only used the new castle sets on GWR, and I'm sure the Scotrail sets are essentially the same - all of the work carried out is pretty much under the skin - the Mk3's had a lot more corrosion than originally thought and getting the power doors in properly wasn't easy. The project is more to do with longevity than making a train feel more modern - in fact the Mk3s are very popular with passengers so little point in doing to much to them apart from a facelift.

Highland37 · 15 Oct 2019

Longevity? They are not planning using them past 2026. If longevity is the aim, by far the best way is to order new stock.

Speed43125 · 15 Oct 2019

Highland37 said:
Longevity? They are not planning using them past 2026. If longevity is the aim, by far the best way is to order new stock.

My understanding was they were going to be kept as long as 2030?

Highland37 · 15 Oct 2019

That would be insane. They are on their last legs.

EE Andy b1 · 15 Oct 2019

Highland37 said:
Longevity? They are not planning using them past 2026. If longevity is the aim, by far the best way is to order new stock.

So they will have to have new rolling stock ordered and start building in 2024 for a 2026 start date which would be probably be delayed due to problems with new stock and Driver/guard and maintenance training.

Any idea what rolling stock Scotrail would like to go for?

hexagon789 · 15 Oct 2019

Speed43125 said:
My understanding was they were going to be kept as long as 2030?

That was my understanding as well.

EE Andy b1 said:
Any idea what rolling stock Scotrail would like to go for?

Perhaps a new thread if there isn't already one?

433N · 15 Oct 2019

I must have missed something ... where does the 2030 date come from ?

My whole thinking on this project has been with regard to the franchise lasting until 2025 and that a requirement for a new franchise would be the replacement of the HSTs. That might not have been the original thinking but given the problems with the whole project, I would have thought replacement would be essential in the next franchise now.

In fact, tbh, I've been wondering whether there will be any return on the investment of upgrading the HSTs before 2025 ... It isn't so far away and I think we are still some way away from a fully functional fleet covering all the work for which they were intended.

S-Bahn · 15 Oct 2019

As a related question, how much of the network that the HST's are running on is electrified, and what further electrification schemes on those routes are being proposed/confirmed?

BRX · 15 Oct 2019

This article mentions 'ensuring structural integrity' of the power cars until 2030.

https://www.railengineer.co.uk/2017/03/23/scotrails-new-hsts/

hexagon789 · 15 Oct 2019

433N said:
I must have missed something ... where does the 2030 date come from ?

My whole thinking on this project has been with regard to the franchise lasting until 2025 and that a requirement for a new franchise would be the replacement of the HSTs. That might not have been the original thinking but given the problems with the whole project, I would have thought replacement would be essential in the next franchise now.

In fact, tbh, I've been wondering whether there will be any return on the investment of upgrading the HSTs before 2025 ... It isn't so far away and I think we are still some way away from a fully functional fleet covering all the work for which they were intended.

I had a look in the franchise agreement and sure enough that only lists up to 2025, I'm sure somewhere it was stated they were expected to do 10 years service though.

S-Bahn said:
As a related question, how much of the network that the HST's are running on is electrified, and what further electrification schemes on those routes are being proposed/confirmed?

Glasgow QS-Dunblane & Edinburgh Waverley to where the Aberdeen line leaves the Edinburgh & Glasgow.

Suburban routes are the next being looked at Glasgow-East Kilbride/Edinburgh-the Fife Circle: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/scottish-electrification-updates-discussion.90420/page-126

Alanko · 15 Oct 2019

Highland37 said:
Longevity? They are not planning using them past 2026.

They might all be finished by then! Just in time to shunt them onto the scrap lines at Long Marston...

Haymarket didn't look quite so much like an HST chop shop this morning. What I am seeing is pairs of refurbed power cars; it looks especially funny seeing a 170 with a lone 43 shunted onto the end. I didn't see any refurbed coaches today.

Highland37 said:
That would be insane. They are on their last legs.

Surely there is a bit of Trigger's Broom about them though? If you replace the engines, electronics, general breakables and swap out corroded panels, frames etc, then surely these things could go on for ever in theory, money no object? There are plenty of MK1 coaches, and older diesel locos, kicking around.

Highland37 · 15 Oct 2019

In other news Europcar are refurbishing their fleet of Austin Princesses.

BRX · 15 Oct 2019

The 73/9s are 10 years 'older' than the HSTs but are supposed to have another 20-25 years life in them. The engines in the HSTs are significantly younger than those in 158s... and also 170s I think?

Alanko · 15 Oct 2019

Highland37 said:
In other news Europcar are refurbishing their fleet of Austin Princesses.

A fairly fallacious comparison, no? The B52 bomber was introduced in the early '50s, and they still have many years of life left in them. There are still DC-3s out there earning their keep as well. There are Dakotas out there that wore invasion stripes during WW2 that are now running around on turboprops. None of these aircraft are the same as when they rolled off the production line. What matters, surely, is not the age but the initial build quality (where your Princess analogy falls down) and how well these machines are maintained and upgraded in the interim.

Altnabreac · 15 Oct 2019

If the current franchise runs to 2025 (a big IF!) then I’m sure HST replacement will be one of the tasks of the next franchise.

It’s not going to be instantaneous though so a replacement date of 2027-28 is likely to be the earliest possible and I’d agree that 2030 is more likely to be realistic.

47271 · 15 Oct 2019

Highland37 said:
In other news Europcar are refurbishing their fleet of Austin Princesses.

He he, please, I've already done that gag when I wondered if Wabtec's van at Haymarket was a rickety BR yellow Vauxhall Chevette fitted with a new engine and held together with fibreglass and gaffer tape, and a dodgy refitted passenger door.

On present performance there's no way that they've got another ten years in them. If they really have that life left, then whoever's in charge of day to day engineering at Scotrail needs sacking because they obviously have no idea of how to operate ageing but otherwise sound HSTs.

Highland37 · 15 Oct 2019

There seems to be a lot of people who are ignoring the fact that only seven sets have been delivered and their availability is poor.

Lucky Scotrail have the 158s and 170s as otherwise the service would be undeliverable.

Northhighland · 16 Oct 2019

Killingworth said:
I'd agree. In the good old days I recall journeys in the Highlands when you got a choice of compartment.......... Short forming, cancelled trains and lack of capacity are a nationwide issue, but even standing for 30 minutes is bad. Over 3 hours is ludicrous and dangerous. I note passenger numbers in the Highlands are not going up, and with that situation they won't.

agreed. That is the biggest dissapointment in this mess. If they can get a reliable, predictable HST service in place numbers would go up. Substantially. Passengers really like the product.

433N · 16 Oct 2019

Northhighland said:
agreed. That is the biggest dissapointment in this mess. If they can get a reliable, predictable HST service in place numbers would go up. Substantially. Passengers really like the product.

... but will Abelio now reap any financial benefit for that before their franchise ends in 2025 ? With that in mind, it makes you wonder about their commitment to the project/mess now.

CEN60 · 16 Oct 2019

433N said:
... but will Abelio now reap any financial benefit for that before their franchise ends in 2025 ? With that in mind, it makes you wonder about their commitment to the project/mess now.

What makes you think that Abelio will still be running the franchise until 2025?

433N · 16 Oct 2019

CEN60 said:
What makes you think that Abelio will still be running the franchise until 2025?

I can't see ScotGov/TS ending it before then ... they would have to pick up the bill which Dutch taxpayers are currently paying. They will probably continue to wag a finger and bluster alot though.

So the question is will Abelio bail ? Having had improvement notices and two major projects which have been a headache, I guess it depends on whether they see a positive financial gain in the 2020-2025 period after all of their investments in 2015-2020. I would be really interested to know the nature of the compensation (if any) for the late delivery on those two projects.

ScotRail HST Introduction - Updates & Discussion

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