Transport for Wales incident concerns

Disabled Vet · 15 Oct 2019

I am a wheelchair user and obviously rely on the help of the staff on each of the trains and stations I travel on and through.

Back in June of this year I fell from the ramp onto the platform, it was exceedingly embarrassing and I was somewhat in shock and I had sustained some injuries but at the time nothing to initially be concerned about.

Transport for Wales said that it could not of happened on their train because the times I gave did not match and besides that it hadn’t been reported. They passed me on to cross country trains who after some investigation had found that there was a report but it was made three or four days after the incident which I thought was very suspect.

I was contacted by transport for Wales and I thought I was dealing with them directly about this incident, however I just noticed on an email I received previously that I’m actually dealing with what looks like a separate legal company.

My question is this, how impartial will transport for Wales be and should I seek independent legal advice?

RailUK Forums

221129 · 15 Oct 2019

I'm not sure why youd be talking to Transport for Wales about an incident with a CrossCountry Train?

Horizon22 · 15 Oct 2019

221129 said:
I'm not sure why youd be talking to Transport for Wales about an incident with a CrossCountry Train?

Unless staff employed at a TfW station put them onto a Cross Country train?

DarloRich · 15 Oct 2019

can we clear up which train company we are talking about? What is the identify of the "separate" company?

Starmill · 15 Oct 2019

Are you able to advise us what day of the week in June and what time the train was from the station where you boarded, along with where you were travelling to on that train and at which station the unfortunate incident occurred? Thank you.

ElectroSoldier · 15 Oct 2019

They have passed it onn to the legal company as a matter of course.
They have no operational provision to talk about or answer any of the questions you might want to ask so they have passed it on to a company who can deal with it best.

The insident should have been reported there and then, any train crew can be interviewed, CCTV footage used etc for back up your claim, a recipt for the ticket you used for the journey (bank statment wit the payment as proof of purchase)

Its not that they are palming you off they have escalated it in the correct way

Disabled Vet · 15 Oct 2019

221129 said:
I'm not sure why youd be talking to Transport for Wales about an incident with a CrossCountry Train?

I originally reported this to Transport for Wales as I was sure it was their train I travelled on. While I was waiting for them to investigate they came back to me and stated that the train I travelled on was not theirs and automatically passed my problem over to CrossCountry trains. Who as I mentioned found out that it was TfW I travelled with not them because a report eventually turned up on some country wide system they use.

Disabled Vet · 15 Oct 2019

DarloRich said:
can we clear up which train company we are talking about? What is the identify of the "separate" company?

It is now with Transport for Wales and the separate company is their legal provider.

Disabled Vet · 15 Oct 2019

Starmill said:
Are you able to advise us what day of the week in June and what time the train was from the station where you boarded, along with where you were travelling to on that train and at which station the unfortunate incident occurred? Thank you.

As I reported to TfW I travelled on the 16:45 train from Gloucester to Lydney

Starmill said:
Are you able to advise us what day of the week in June and what time the train was from the station where you boarded, along with where you were travelling to on that train and at which station the unfortunate incident occurred? Thank you.

As I reported to transport for Wales I caught the train from Gloucester to Lydney and the train left Gloucester at 1625.

Y Ddraig Coch · 15 Oct 2019

Disabled Vet said:
As I reported to TfW I travelled on the 16:45 train from Gloucester to Lydney

As I reported to transport for Wales I caught the train from Gloucester to Lydney and the train left Gloucester at 1625.

Where you hurt badly? How did you fall off a ramp with sides? Not an easy thing to do. What makes you think they are at fault?

Wilts Wanderer · 15 Oct 2019

Hi - sorry to hear about your incident.

Gloucester station is managed by GWR
Lydney station is managed by TfW (but I believe is unstaffed much of the time.)
The 16:25 from Gloucester sounds very much like an Arriva CrossCountry service from Nottingham-Cardiff.

Hope this helps, and you resolve your issue.

Llanigraham · 15 Oct 2019

I think we also need to know who put the ramp in place between the train and platform.
If, as stated, Lydney is unstaffed, then it must have been the Guard on the train, and in that case s/he should have submitted a report of this "incident".

muz379 · 16 Oct 2019

Disabled Vet said:
I am a wheelchair user and obviously rely on the help of the staff on each of the trains and stations I travel on and through.

Back in June of this year I fell from the ramp onto the platform, it was exceedingly embarrassing and I was somewhat in shock and I had sustained some injuries but at the time nothing to initially be concerned about.

Transport for Wales said that it could not of happened on their train because the times I gave did not match and besides that it hadn’t been reported. They passed me on to cross country trains who after some investigation had found that there was a report but it was made three or four days after the incident which I thought was very suspect.

I was contacted by transport for Wales and I thought I was dealing with them directly about this incident, however I just noticed on an email I received previously that I’m actually dealing with what looks like a separate legal company.

My question is this, how impartial will transport for Wales be and should I seek independent legal advice?

Sometimes when a communication is received by Customer relations and it it relates to an incident concerning a train that was delayed and the passenger gives the actual time the train arrived and that time closely matches the scheduled time of another service from that station it might be proper to enquire as to which service the passengers communication concerns .

As for the report being made three or four days after the incident . If the report was made by a member of train-crew or station staff who witnessed your accident it may well be that the report was made at or immediately after the time of your incident on a paper form but that it has taken 4 days to be processed by local management and put onto the system that customer relations access to check for reports of an incident . There is nothing particularly suspect about this .

As for dealing with a separate legal company ,and the impartiality of them or TFW . What is it you are in dealings with transport for Wales over ? is it a personal injury claim or did you just want to raise a complaint over the accident ?

If it is a personal injury claim then it sounds like they have escalated it to a company that deals with such things , claims such as that are generally beyond the remit of most customer relations departments . In this instance I would not expect them to be particularly impartial because they have been instructed by TFW to act on their behalf , and if you are attempting to pursue a claim then it would probably be best to seek some legal advice yourself unless you know your way around the law in this area .

WesternLancer · 16 Oct 2019

Disabled Vet said:
I am a wheelchair user and obviously rely on the help of the staff on each of the trains and stations I travel on and through.

Back in June of this year I fell from the ramp onto the platform, it was exceedingly embarrassing and I was somewhat in shock and I had sustained some injuries but at the time nothing to initially be concerned about.

Transport for Wales said that it could not of happened on their train because the times I gave did not match and besides that it hadn’t been reported. They passed me on to cross country trains who after some investigation had found that there was a report but it was made three or four days after the incident which I thought was very suspect.

I was contacted by transport for Wales and I thought I was dealing with them directly about this incident, however I just noticed on an email I received previously that I’m actually dealing with what looks like a separate legal company.

My question is this, how impartial will transport for Wales be and should I seek independent legal advice?

Hi - sounds like it would be helpful to know a bit more about where you are seeking to go with this:
eg is it:

- request for an apology for what happened
- aim that they train staff more to prevent such falls occurring in future
- request for a compensation payment from train company (not a legal damages type claim)
- legal damages claim for compensation (eg like a 'no win no fee' type claim)

Also - do you know who was it who operated the ramp? - eg staff from on board the train employed by the train operator or staff from the station where the incident happened (they might be employees of different organisations). That will help people advise you on who the claim or request should be put to.

Haywain · 16 Oct 2019

WesternLancer said:
- request for a compensation payment from train company (not a legal damages type claim)

From a train company point of view, any such payment would be seen as being a potential admission of liability and should therefore be handled by specialists in that area of law, lest it leave them open to further action.

WesternLancer · 16 Oct 2019

Haywain said:
From a train company point of view, any such payment would be seen as being a potential admission of liability and should therefore be handled by specialists in that area of law, lest it leave them open to further action.

Thanks - point well made.

Disabled Vet · 16 Oct 2019

Y Ddraig Coch said:
Where you hurt badly? How did you fall off a ramp with sides? Not an easy thing to do. What makes you think they are at fault?

Yes I was hurt, but it wasn’t the injuries that I picked up from the fall that bothered me but I use a wheelchair due to breaking my back and suffer chronic pain which can be aggravated quote easy.
How did I come to fall, well the conductor warned me that it was steep to the platform, all I remember is that I was let go at the top of the ramp, my left castor wheel hit the side and over I went.

33017 · 16 Oct 2019

The 16.25 from Gloucester to Lydney is 1V11 14.07 Nottingham - Cardiff, operated by Arriva Cross Country. There are no TfW services between 14.48 & 16.58.

WesternLancer · 16 Oct 2019

So it sounds like DisabledVet needs to get this claim / complaint to Cross Country Trains as I can't see what Transport for Wales (or their legal representatives) would have to do with it. If the station is unstaffed the staff member assisting with exit from the train would have been a Cross Country employee

https://www.crosscountrytrains.co.uk/customer-service/contact-us/complaints-and-comments

OP has not said how TfW were involved to start with (ie did you or your solicitor complain to them about this, and if so why - as presumably you would be aware that it was train staff who helped you get off).

Disabled Vet · 17 Oct 2019

Llanigraham said:
I think we also need to know who put the ramp in place between the train and platform.
If, as stated, Lydney is unstaffed, then it must have been the Guard on the train, and in that case s/he should have submitted a report of this "incident".

That’s just the thing, the conductor did place the ramp down and I remember him say that it was steep from the train to the platform. After he got me onto the ramp he just let go, he must of thought I was a Paralympian with the strength of 10. I believe he was in shock after he saw me go over the side of the ramp.. WHAT I TAKE ISSUE WITH now is that Transport for Wales said none of their people reported the incident and passed it to CrossCountry trains, but suspiciously 4 days after the event the report was raised.

AlterEgo · 17 Oct 2019

Disabled Vet said:
That’s just the thing, the conductor did place the ramp down and I remember him say that it was steep from the train to the platform. After he got me onto the ramp he just let go, he must of thought I was a Paralympian with the strength of 10. I believe he was in shock after he saw me go over the side of the ramp.. WHAT I TAKE ISSUE WITH now is that Transport for Wales said none of their people reported the incident and passed it to CrossCountry trains, but suspiciously 4 days after the event the report was raised.

Nobody from TfW would have reported the incident. Lydney is unstaffed.

This is clearly CrossCountry's issue to resolve.

33017 · 17 Oct 2019

Disabled Vet said:
That’s just the thing, the conductor did place the ramp down and I remember him say that it was steep from the train to the platform. After he got me onto the ramp he just let go, he must of thought I was a Paralympian with the strength of 10. I believe he was in shock after he saw me go over the side of the ramp.. WHAT I TAKE ISSUE WITH now is that Transport for Wales said none of their people reported the incident and passed it to CrossCountry trains, but suspiciously 4 days after the event the report was raised.

If the incident occurred at an unstaffed station and did not involve a TfW service (and if it was the 16.25 from Gloucester, it didn’t), and if wasn’t reported to them at the time by XC, then it’s difficult to see how TfW would have known about it on the day. A report would subsequently have been raised after you drew their attention to the matter as the incident took place at one of their (unstaffed) stations and so would have required investigation as a matter of course.

Haywain · 17 Oct 2019

Disabled Vet said:
but suspiciously 4 days after the event the report was raised.

What is it about this that you regard as suspicious? A report could have taken a few days to have been logged even if the report was completed at the end of the conductor's shift.

Llanigraham · 17 Oct 2019

Disabled Vet said:
That’s just the thing, the conductor did place the ramp down and I remember him say that it was steep from the train to the platform. After he got me onto the ramp he just let go, he must of thought I was a Paralympian with the strength of 10. I believe he was in shock after he saw me go over the side of the ramp.. WHAT I TAKE ISSUE WITH now is that Transport for Wales said none of their people reported the incident and passed it to CrossCountry trains, but suspiciously 4 days after the event the report was raised.

You still haven't confirmed exactly who the train operator was, but several here seem to think it was not TfW, so why did you report it to them?

My understanding of procedures with ramps is that it is the Guards job to put the ramp down but not to "unload" the occupant. That is their own responsibility. Perhaps a Guard could clarify?

And I see no difficulty in the 4 day "delay" in the reporting considering you appear to have confused exactly which company was involved.

WesternLancer · 17 Oct 2019

Disabled Vet said:
That’s just the thing, the conductor did place the ramp down and I remember him say that it was steep from the train to the platform. After he got me onto the ramp he just let go, he must of thought I was a Paralympian with the strength of 10. I believe he was in shock after he saw me go over the side of the ramp.. WHAT I TAKE ISSUE WITH now is that Transport for Wales said none of their people reported the incident and passed it to CrossCountry trains, but suspiciously 4 days after the event the report was raised.

"WHAT I TAKE ISSUE WITH now is that Transport for Wales said none of their people reported the incident and passed it to CrossCountry trains"

I know it sounds daft - but that's a little bit like saying that if you have an accident in an Asda shop, taking issue with Sainsbury's for not reporting it to Asda.

I can't see how there is any way TfW would have known about the issue to report it, it's the other way round - Cross Country needed to report it (and ultimately alert TfW to something that happened on a station they 'manage', but I use inverted commas because a halt where no one works is not going to be a place that they are pro-actively managing int he way I think you might presume.

I think you need to focus on Cross Country Train ref this - it would seem maybe some issues about their staff training ref handling wheelchairs on / off ramps to train etc.

Disabled Vet · 17 Oct 2019

AlterEgo said:
Nobody from TfW would have reported the incident. Lydney is unstaffed.

This is clearly CrossCountry's issue to resolve.

It is not CrossCountry according to them as TfW have now reported that a passenger had fallen from their train on the date I reported. My original question was if it is wise for me to seek separate legal advice before their legal team sends their own report to me.

WesternLancer · 17 Oct 2019

Disabled Vet said:
As I reported to TfW I travelled on the 16:45 train from Gloucester to Lydney

As I reported to transport for Wales I caught the train from Gloucester to Lydney and the train left Gloucester at 1625.

This is confusingly stated

Did you travel on a train that left Gloucester at 16.45 or 16.25 ? you seem to be saying you were on both of them.

WesternLancer · 17 Oct 2019

Disabled Vet said:
It is not CrossCountry according to them as TfW have now reported that a passenger had fallen from their train on the date I reported. My original question was if it is wise for me to seek separate legal advice before their legal team sends their own report to me.

Legal teams work for the people who employ them, they are, I would presume, not there to be impartial, they are there to work for the people who employ them. Impartiality would more likely be in the realm of a body like the Rail Ombudsman

(your original question was: "My question is this, how impartial will transport for Wales be and should I seek independent legal advice?"), so yes, if you are in a legal claim or dispute with them, perhaps see a solicitor or at least go to the CAB.

But you did not answer my earlier query, which is key to understanding how to offer you some pertinent advice:

Hi - sounds like it would be helpful to know a bit more about where you are seeking to go with this:
eg is it:

- request for an apology for what happened
- aim that they train staff more to prevent such falls occurring in future
- request for a compensation payment from train company (not a legal damages type claim)
- legal damages claim for compensation (eg like a 'no win no fee' type claim)

yorkie · 17 Oct 2019

Disabled Vet said:
It is not CrossCountry according to them as TfW have now reported that a passenger had fallen from their train on the date I reported. My original question was if it is wise for me to seek separate legal advice before their legal team sends their own report to me.

If you do not know which train you caught then I would drop the case if I were you.

30907 · 17 Oct 2019

yorkie said:
If you do not know which train you caught then I would drop the case if I were you.

As there is no scheduled departure from Gloucester to Lydney at 1645, and the next TfW is 1658, I think we may take it that the reference to 1645 (in the same post as 1625) is a typo or refers to a delayed departure.
That leaves us with the question as to why XC have claimed that their service was not involved.

Transport for Wales incident concerns

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