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EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

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Grumpy Git

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I don't think you quite get it. It isn't the fact that EU legislation is necessarily so bad that it must be immediately repealed. Some of it is good, some of it isn't. It's the fact that the country is increasingly subject to legislation over which it has practically no control and which is very often not in its best interests (it's impossible to satisfy the requirements of 28 very disparate nations).

What I was trying to get at (on the other forums) was why individuals wanted "to get out ASAP, deal or no-deal", there doesn't appear to be any reasons for their apparent hatred of the EU (particularly when we have such a pillock as PM)? It's almost as if some folk have been brainwashed by the Daily Mail?
 
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Senex

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Which, being unable to promote or modify legislation is as much use as a chocolate fireguard.
In "normal" times, with a governing party with a good working majority, what use is the Westminster parliament?
 

najaB

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... and which is very often not in its best interests (it's impossible to satisfy the requirements of 28 very disparate nations)...
Finally, you get it. Being a member of the EU isn't about getting our own way all the time. Sometimes we have to do what's in the best interest of the group.
 

Wuffle

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To be fare the Tories hard core leavers are hard right. I don't think everyone who voted leave is hard right.
The concept of right and left is an outdated paradigm as both "sides" lead to the individual becoming subservient to the state and it's apparatus, these days it's "Freedom or Tyranny"
 

Wuffle

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Davis, Raab and Barclay have been the three Secretaries of State for Exiting the European Union, and are all Leavers. Davis was also the chief negotiator before Olly Robbins.

Except Olly Robbins was "negotiating behind the backs of Davis and Raab which is why both resigned
There is no doubt whatsoever that the supposedly neutral Civil Service is anything but
 

Wuffle

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Both Tony Benn and Peter Shore have been dead for several years so it's not known what side they might have taken in the current debate. Although there are some leavers in the Labour party, its membership is overwhelmingly pro-remain and the Tory membership is overwhelmingly pro-leave.

Given the strength of their feeling on how "anti-democratic" the EU was/is I doubt that any sensible case could be made that they would change their minds
Of course nearer to home we had the late Bob Crow who was well known for his anti- EU postion
 

EM2

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Given the strength of their feeling on how "anti-democratic" the EU was/is I doubt that any sensible case could be made that they would change their minds
Of course nearer to home we had the late Bob Crow who was well known for his anti- EU postion
Crow was a not a Labour member, or even a Labour supporter.
 

fowler9

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Given the strength of their feeling on how "anti-democratic" the EU was/is I doubt that any sensible case could be made that they would change their minds
Of course nearer to home we had the late Bob Crow who was well known for his anti- EU postion
Speaking of anti-democratic we have the PM, his advisor Dominic Cummings, the leader of the House Of Commons, the House Of Lords and the Royal Family. I don't recall voting for any of them.
 

fowler9

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The concept of right and left is an outdated paradigm as both "sides" lead to the individual becoming subservient to the state and it's apparatus, these days it's "Freedom or Tyranny"
Which is just ridiculous and a construct of the right wing (Or whatever you want to call them) press. I refer to freedom or tyranny in this case .
 

DynamicSpirit

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I don't think you quite get it. It isn't the fact that EU legislation is necessarily so bad that it must be immediately repealed. Some of it is good, some of it isn't. It's the fact that the country is increasingly subject to legislation over which it has practically no control and which is very often not in its best interests (it's impossible to satisfy the requirements of 28 very disparate nations).

I live in the borough of Greenwich. For decades, the borough of Greenwich has been subject to legislation imposed down from Westminster, over which the borough of Greenwich has virtually no control, and which is often not in Greenwich's best interests. Is that an argument for Greenwich leaving the UK, so that we in Greenwich can determine our own future and Govern ourselves?

(You can of course make the same point for any local authority)
 

edwin_m

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I don't think you quite get it. It isn't the fact that EU legislation is necessarily so bad that it must be immediately repealed. Some of it is good, some of it isn't. It's the fact that the country is increasingly subject to legislation over which it has practically no control and which is very often not in its best interests (it's impossible to satisfy the requirements of 28 very disparate nations).
For example?
 

edwin_m

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I live in the borough of Greenwich. For decades, the borough of Greenwich has been subject to legislation imposed down from Westminster, over which the borough of Greenwich has virtually no control, and which is often not in Greenwich's best interests. Is that an argument for Greenwich leaving the UK, so that we in Greenwich can determine our own future and Govern ourselves?

(You can of course make the same point for any local authority)
Greenwich doesn't have it so bad as it's within the London bubble, the government has heard of it and some of them probably even live there so the chances are that Westminster will take account of the needs of places like Greenwich. That's much less likely for Oldham or Kirkcaldy or Armagh or Port Talbot, which have probably done better out of Brussels than out of Westminster in recent years.
 
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Peter Kelford

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Turkey will never be allowed to join the EU as long at they continue to illegally occupy northern Cyprus

There's this and now Turkey is starting to plunge into anti-democratic territory, trying to rebuild the Ottoman Empire?

"What laws and/or rules that we currently have to comply with under EU rules would you change the day after a "'no-deal' Brexit?"

Personally, nothing. The EU is the international 'Gold Standard'. Why would we want to plunge into a 'Just Money' situation where personal health is a very distant secondary concern?

Ahh yes, but they are not the paymasters ;)
You ask the likes of Mogg in private what laws he would want repealed and there is probably a long list, although nothing that either doesn't affect the man on the street negatively or doesn't both make him shed loads of cash and allows him to hide it for tax purposes.

The only Mogg I want having a say at No. 10 is Larry!

And Cummings goes round telling the media to go to speak to 'Rich Remainers'.

I don't think you quite get it. It isn't the fact that EU legislation is necessarily so bad that it must be immediately repealed. Some of it is good, some of it isn't. It's the fact that the country is increasingly subject to legislation over which it has practically no control and which is very often not in its best interests (it's impossible to satisfy the requirements of 28 very disparate nations).

The EU has a court + appeals court with constitutionally protected rights, and elects a parliament with constitutionally protected powers. The parliament is also arguably more representative of the people than the UK constituency system. Because it's impossible to satisfy 28 nations' needs, the EU exists to balance the overall interest over an every man for himself arrangement.

Speaking of anti-democratic we have the PM, his advisor Dominic Cummings, the leader of the House Of Commons, the House Of Lords and the Royal Family. I don't recall voting for any of them.

But, we elect the EU parliament and the other 27 elect their leaders so therefore EU presidencies are somewhat democratic.
 

edwin_m

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Just out of interest, does it matter if the EU's laws are "good" or not?
Well I'd say it does, and we do have some opportunity to change them if we don't like a proposal. I can't offhand think of any that I'd consider bad for the UK - in fact the EU has far less influence than Westminster on our daily lives or responsibility for the pretty dire status of some regions - but would welcome any thoughts from others.
 

edwin_m

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There's this and now Turkey is starting to plunge into anti-democratic territory, trying to rebuild the Ottoman Empire?
Before Erdogan and even in his early years in power Turkey seemed to be following the path of most Balkan nations towards peace with its neighbours and alignment with European legal norms that would eventually lead to membership. This is no longer then case but I'm not sure whether it's because Turkey decided it would never be allowed in due to not having a "Christian culture" so might as well stop trying, or because Erdogan decided that he wanted to do things that weren't compatible with membership. It's the sort of situation where an inner and outer circle of EU members might help, with the outer circle less involved in political and financial integration but still integrated economically.
 

DynamicSpirit

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Before Erdogan and even in his early years in power Turkey seemed to be following the path of most Balkan nations towards peace with its neighbours and alignment with European legal norms that would eventually lead to membership. This is no longer then case but I'm not sure whether it's because Turkey decided it would never be allowed in due to not having a "Christian culture" so might as well stop trying, or because Erdogan decided that he wanted to do things that weren't compatible with membership.

I suspect it's a bit of both: Erdogan in his early years probably would have compromised a bit on his policies to get EU membership, but when it became apparent just how far the authoritarian direction he was leading Turkey in was from EU membership conditions, he basically gave up on the idea of joining.

I think there's also an element that Erdogan has a rather Trumpish attitude to any criticism of his decisions: He typically responds to criticism by throwing all his toys out of the pram. And since EU leaders have repeatedly criticised the removal of human rights and democracy etc. in Turkey...
 

najaB

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I'm not sure whether it's because Turkey decided it would never be allowed in due to not having a "Christian culture" so might as well stop trying, or because Erdogan decided that he wanted to do things that weren't compatible with membership.
Like most "hard man" leaders it has all been a blatant power grab - right down to the super-easy, barely an inconvenience "attempted coup" that gave him an excuse to get rid of military people who weren't loyal enough.
 

Wuffle

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Speaking of anti-democratic we have the PM, his advisor Dominic Cummings, the leader of the House Of Commons, the House Of Lords and the Royal Family. I don't recall voting for any of them.
Not sure you understand how the UK system works
I, for example, didn't vote for Gordon Brown to be PM or Alistair Campbell to be an advisor, oh and I didn't get a vote on joining the EEC
The electorate delegates powers to a representative who then casts their vote
The Royals got their position by Parliamentary appointment and at the time they were the closest "royals" who weren't Roman Catholic
 

Wuffle

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Which is just ridiculous and a construct of the right wing (Or whatever you want to call them) press. I refer to freedom or tyranny in this case .
The concept of freedom or tyranny has been around for far longer then a "right wing" press.
Tyranny or rule by a tyrant as defined in wikipedia (caveats apply)
wikipedia and its entry on tyranny
 
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Peter Kelford

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an inner and outer circle of EU members might help, with the outer circle less involved in political and financial integration but still integrated economically.

That would be rebuilding the EU from scratch. There is already a Council of Europe of which Turkey is a member.
 

Senex

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There's this and now Turkey is starting to plunge into anti-democratic territory, trying to rebuild the Ottoman Empire?
Erdogan trying to rebuild the Ottoman Empire, Putin trying to rebuild the Russian Empire (and very happy to play the part of Tsar of all the Russias), right-wing Tories thinking they still live in the British Empire .... Where does it go next? Is there anyone looking to rebuild the Habsburg Empire — or even the Holy Roman Empire?
 

edwin_m

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Not sure you understand how the UK system works
I, for example, didn't vote for Gordon Brown to be PM or Alistair Campbell to be an advisor, oh and I didn't get a vote on joining the EEC
The electorate delegates powers to a representative who then casts their vote
The Royals got their position by Parliamentary appointment and at the time they were the closest "royals" who weren't Roman Catholic
So I presume you're entirely happy for our elected representatives to exercise their judgment and reject a Brexit that's damaging to our national interest.

Erdogan trying to rebuild the Ottoman Empire, Putin trying to rebuild the Russian Empire (and very happy to play the part of Tsar of all the Russias), right-wing Tories thinking they still live in the British Empire .... Where does it go next? Is there anyone looking to rebuild the Habsburg Empire — or even the Holy Roman Empire?
Good time to be a builder of gunboats.
 

krus_aragon

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I live in the borough of Greenwich. For decades, the borough of Greenwich has been subject to legislation imposed down from Westminster, over which the borough of Greenwich has virtually no control, and which is often not in Greenwich's best interests. Is that an argument for Greenwich leaving the UK, so that we in Greenwich can determine our own future and Govern ourselves?

(You can of course make the same point for any local authority)
Follow the example of Fenwick or Pimlico!
 

Wuffle

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So I presume you're entirely happy for our elected representatives to exercise their judgment and reject a Brexit that's damaging to our national interest.

On the contrary I'd rather that Parliament delivered what it promised and actually voted for when they triggered article 50
 

Wuffle

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Although - presuming you're old enough - you got the referendum vote to leave it two years later?
What was the age limit then ? possibly not depending and of course that vote was about membership of the EEC which was a completely different kettle of fish
 
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