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Caledonian Sleeper

BRX

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If people were showing up not realising they'd chosen a shared compartment - surely the solution is to change something in the booking process, rather than to remove an option that many people would like to have. For example, when you book a shared cabin, a pop-up appears that explains, and requires you to actively tick a box or press a button to confirm that you've understood, before proceeding.
 
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lachlan

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This is part of the message I received:

Speaking to a wide range of people, police and user groups, has validated that sharing accommodation with a stranger is simply not appropriate or desirable for most. This ticket option was withdrawn in agreement with Transport Scotland, as agreed in our contract. We do offer a wide range of ticket types to accommodate all budgets.

What I object to isn't that it's now impossible to share a room. It's that travelling solo is much more expensive per person than as a pair. I see no problem sharing, whenever I'm on holiday I stay in hostels and haven't had a problem.

If people were booking unaware that they would have to share then that's a failure on Caledonian Sleeper's part
 

Brissle Girl

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I find the whole concept of a separate cabin for an overnight journey strangely anachronistic when thousands of business and well heeled travellers pay thousands of pounds to lie in flat beds on overnight journeys.

I seem to recall that the concept isn’t allowed in the UK on safety grounds (positioning in a crash?), but that feels like someone hasn’t tried hard enough. Probably one for speculative ideas but how attractive would a service be using good quality recent emu stock that’s becoming available running a flatbed no frills service between London Edinburgh and Glasgow? You could then even make a return day journey in marginal time to get more use out of the stock and offer an alternative to existing offerings.
 

BRX

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I know people who previously wouldn’t use the Sleeper for business because their travel departments would only book the cheapest berth option available which might involve sharing and they weren’t prepared to do that.

They have now switched back to using the Sleeper because of a guarantee of a private room.
I'm sure we can also find anecdotal evidence of people who haven't used the sleeper since the cheaper option of sharing was removed. The problem in the scenario you describe doesn't lie in what the sleeper offers but in a dysfunctional process at that person's place of work.
 

theironroad

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Quite why flat bed pod style cubicles were ruled out on safety grounds still puzzles me, it would have been perfectly possible to design a pod that stopped people falling out or whatever the issue is perceived to be.

Also, I wonder if the objection to sleeping with a stranger was because it was a 1 on1 experience which means it's pretty intense and certainly not ideal from a safety point of view with no one else in the cabin so there be an assualt or some other incident.

Would the people who refuse to share with one other person also have refused a 4 or 6 bed couchette with some lockable storage. Set at the right price, I bet a carriage of 4 bed couchettes would have high occupancy rates most of the year.
 

Altnabreac

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I'm sure we can also find anecdotal evidence of people who haven't used the sleeper since the cheaper option of sharing was removed. The problem in the scenario you describe doesn't lie in what the sleeper offers but in a dysfunctional process at that person's place of work.

I’m just explaining why they might have had feedback from people complaining about the sharing option.

I personally don’t mind sharing but it is important to avoid for other people. I can understand why it was removed even though it doesn’t suit me.

I agree that more investigation of the pod idea would be good, but that ship seems to have sailed now.
 

atillathehunn

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Returning to this... last night's highlander would suggest that 15 minutes is recoverable - it made up a 35 minute delay between Edinburgh and Euston - and I note that the timings have more slack on a sunday night than other nights, but it did leave Edinburgh about 15 minutes later than the 'normal' time and still manage to arrive on time.

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/G62303/2019/10/13/advanced
Totally in a time warp here, sorry.

Last few nights they do seem to have clawed the time back, though interesting it seems quite often between Preston and Crewe - on the night you posted the link for and on another occasion too. Perhaps it wasn't looped at Acton Bridge? Or got a good run through Preston? Not sure, but it did claw back that time I'm assuming by creative routing as it didn't make it up south of Carlisle.
 

jellybaby

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Sharing cabins with strangers was as archaic as not having the option of an ensuite - just about fit for the 1980s, but no more than that.
There are still plenty of hostels around the country where you can share a room with strangers.

I've seen it suggested that 2 strangers in a cabin is different to 4 though.
 

Bletchleyite

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I've seen it suggested that 2 strangers in a cabin is different to 4 though.

It absolutely is. Being in a small intimate space with one other person you don't know for a long period of time is far more awkward than being in a larger space with more people. Hence why I'd rather be in the seats (or say a YHA dorm room) than share a cabin or hotel room with a stranger. It's a shame there is no couchette option - even a Platzkartny-style open plan transverse couchette coach (where you'd sleep clothed) would be preferable to sharing a cabin.
 

trebor79

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I've shared cabins on the sleeper in First days, shared couchettes on north sea ferries and continental trains. On only 2 ocassions have I had problems or awkwardness.
1. Sharing a 4 berth couchette with a newly married couple on the Tangier - Marrakesh sleeper. Didn't know what to do, asked the attendant for another berth, none available so in the end I just turned toward the bulkhead and tried to melt into the mattress.
2. On the Newcastle - Amsterdam ferry. Awoken at god knows what time by a very drunken Scotsman in a kilt crashing in. Then proceeded to try and have a very bizarre conversation with me until one of the other gents told him to shut up and go to sleep. This he did, and a few minutes later lost control of his bladder and bowels. Me and the other 2 guys roamed the ship to find a crew member (a lot of whom had also been making merry on the bar) and get moved to another cabin. We had the last laugh in the morning watching him scurry down the gangplank still wearing his soiled kilt and with his legs covered in his own mess.

Edit oh another time in Poland, awoken by a young English lady I'd spoken to briefly when boarding knocking on the door saying there was a weird bloke in her cabin and what should she do. Persuaded me to leave my mates and sleep in her cabin to put the weird bloke off any ideas. Turned out there was no weird bloke ;)
 

route101

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For me its the Russian roulette of who are going to share with . Im ok if its a 4 bed couchette for example . Still think the difference between seated and berth is too high
 

JohnMcL7

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Quite why flat bed pod style cubicles were ruled out on safety grounds still puzzles me, it would have been perfectly possible to design a pod that stopped people falling out or whatever the issue is perceived to be.

Also, I wonder if the objection to sleeping with a stranger was because it was a 1 on1 experience which means it's pretty intense and certainly not ideal from a safety point of view with no one else in the cabin so there be an assualt or some other incident.

Would the people who refuse to share with one other person also have refused a 4 or 6 bed couchette with some lockable storage. Set at the right price, I bet a carriage of 4 bed couchettes would have high occupancy rates most of the year.

I wasn't keen on the sharing with the sleeper as it seemed a very small cabin to be with someone you don't know whereas I'd have no problem with a more open design. I was expecting the new brand new carriages to offer something between the seated and berth costs since I travel on my own and it's disappointing they weren't able to do that.
 

BRX

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Couchettes or pods would have been much the preferable option for those who want to lie down flat but don't want to pay for a solo cabin. However, that opportunity was missed (a major failing in this project in my opinion).

As a consequence, sharing a 2-cabin compartment with a stranger is the only option there is. It's far from ideal, and it's quite understandable that some people simply aren't comfortable with it, and of course it's not a situation anyone should be put in without understanding what they are getting. However, the fact is that it's a compromise some *are* happy to accept - proven by the many years it was previously available as an option. As long as anyone choosing it is fully aware of what they are getting - then I don't see any reason at all that it should not be offered. Especially as the new design has failed to provide a better option.

Presumably a berth in a shared cabin can be sold for more than 50% of the cost of a solo berth. So doing it needn't mean a loss in revenue. Potentially it could represent an increase in revenue. And it gives passengers a more affordable option, if they are willing to accept it. In the context of a sleeper service which seems to be getting more expensive. In other words an affordable option can be offered without resulting in a revenue hit for the operator. So isn't it a win-win to offer it?
 

BRX

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Also... while a 4 or 6 bed couchette is potentially less awkward, it's quite possible, and not uncommon, when travelling on the continent, to end up in a cabin where there are just two of you. And in many countries there's no separation by gender either.
 

Flying Snail

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You can keep going on about it but sharing was dropped years ago and it is unlikely to come back.

It does appear that the big reduction in cabins and particularly the cheapest tier has led to a lack of spare capacity anyway.

Mk3 half sets had 72 cabins; 36 double standard class; 36 solo 1st.

Mk5 half sets have 52 or 54 cabins, only 22 or 24 of those are the cheaper classic cabins.

I would have travelled regularly at this time of year and rarely struggled to find capacity within a few days of travel, now it seems that classic rooms are sold out on most of the services within a week and only the very expensive en-suite cabins available.

It is not an issue for me now anyway as the supplements I mainly used have mushroomed in price under Serco, from £50 to £170, in fact looking at bookings for months in advance they are quoting £120 classic and £170 club for supplements when the price for inclusive fares is £130 classic and £140 club.

Based on that CS should only be allowed claim a share of open ticket revenue based on their seat capacity not the berths as well, as they obviously do not want to give any value any longer to those who have already paid for travel tickets.

It seems that they have also demoted flexipass holders to classic cabins, this is probably adding to the demand for these where trains are only half full in club.
 

al78

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I personally don’t mind sharing but it is important to avoid for other people. I can understand why it was removed even though it doesn’t suit me.

When sharing was allowed, there was always that option of paying a premium to have sole use of a cabin (1st class). When I used the sleeper years ago, I paid the lower price and accepted the risk of having to share (I got lucky both times). I wouldn't have dreamed of complaining about sharing given the online booking explicitly states that is a possibility with the standard cabin fare. If it has been removed because people who haven't bothered to read the terms and conditions are complaining, then that appears to be another case of the careless penalising the careful.
 

Scotrail84

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Sharing should still be an option, albeit at a knocked down price. When selecting, it should clearly state before you complete the purchase that you will be sharing with a member of the same sex, hence the knock down price.
 

bastien

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Sharing cabins with strangers was as archaic as not having the option of an ensuite - just about fit for the 1980s, but no more than that.

That said, it's interesting how different people have different views on privacy and safety on board the sleeper. I wouldn't share a room with anyone other than someone I know very well, but I find the idea of complaining that privacy is being invaded in the lounge as really quite weird. Do these people try to have other passengers barred from their table on daytime trains as well?

It might be a cultural thing - way back in First days I was in the lounge and there was a bit of distress from a passenger in discussion with staff nearby. The chap was American and was terrified to go to bed (he had a solo cabin) because he was convinced that his room would be broken into and he'd be attacked or robbed in the night. He was absolutely serious. They persuaded him to go in the end.

I've never heard the 'police advice' line either, I think someone's making things up!
I've read US travel guide books from the 80s and 90s that were full of "never take the sleeper train" advice. Literally every tall story you've ever heard was repeated in them up to and including 'knockout gas'.
 

SteveM70

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I've read US travel guide books from the 80s and 90s that were full of "never take the sleeper train" advice. Literally every tall story you've ever heard was repeated in them up to and including 'knockout gas'.

Many years ago I was on an overnight St Petersburg to Moscow sleeper and that very thing happened, luckily not to me but to others in the group I was travelling with.

The following morning the guide from Intourist (the old Soviet state tourism company) shrugged and said words to the effect of “yeah we know that sort of thing happens from time to time”
 

Meerkat

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Sharing cabins must risk losing revenue. You are selling a full price room at a massive discount risking that a second person doesn’t come along to make the difference up.
 

BRX

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Sharing cabins must risk losing revenue. You are selling a full price room at a massive discount risking that a second person doesn’t come along to make the difference up.
Depends on the quantities... if you have an even number of customers you are OK, if you have an odd number, then if that odd number is 1, yes you make a loss but if it's say 5 then the picture is different - you have 4 cabins which can earn you more than they would if occupied with solo travellers, and 1 which makes less.
 

Meerkat

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Fair point, but two to be pedantic if you get odd numbers of each sex......
 

MrEd

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Sharing cabins with strangers was as archaic as not having the option of an ensuite - just about fit for the 1980s, but no more than that.

That said, it's interesting how different people have different views on privacy and safety on board the sleeper. I wouldn't share a room with anyone other than someone I know very well, but I find the idea of complaining that privacy is being invaded in the lounge as really quite weird. Do these people try to have other passengers barred from their table on daytime trains as well?

It might be a cultural thing - way back in First days I was in the lounge and there was a bit of distress from a passenger in discussion with staff nearby. The chap was American and was terrified to go to bed (he had a solo cabin) because he was convinced that his room would be broken into and he'd be attacked or robbed in the night. He was absolutely serious. They persuaded him to go in the end.

I've never heard the 'police advice' line either, I think someone's making things up!

I for one was astounded by the absurd rule about not sharing tables, but it does seem as though the service is being used by fewer regulars and more one-off tourists, many of whom will not be familiar with the service’s quirks and who often (having heard personally some of their conversations with staff) seem to be paranoid about safety and security. Believe it or not, there were (even three years ago) complaints about sharing tables as much as there were complaints about sharing cabins, with ’safety’, ’privacy’ and ’security’ frequently being mentioned. Your story about the American does not surprise me in the slightest in the light of what I’ve heard- some of the occasional travellers that I witnessed acted as though they were about to walk through the Bronx at 2am, they seemed so on edge about being sexually assaulted/robbed. Maybe night trains in other parts of the world have that reputation, but a good number of UK passengers seemed on edge too. I wonder what makes the sleeper so different from a day train where you’d share a table with other travellers anyway, or why passengers think there’s a greater chance of thefts from a berth/sleeper lounge car than from a luggage rack on a day train? Some of the occasional travellers honestly thought that this was the case. As a regular traveller, I know that any criminal activity on the sleeper is highly unlikely, but some occasional travellers thought otherwise. As is self-evident, none of these complaints came from regulars but from one-off travellers, who had perhaps been misled by some of the ’hotel on wheels’ marketing hype, even though the Mk5s were not even in the country at this point. I suppose they fell for the marketing and expected a ’hotel-quality’ experience with first-class Pullman dining, and so were perhaps a bit put out when they discovered the reality of the service with the Mk2s and Mk3s...

While there is no need to blame CS for this, I do wonder whether the situation might have been improved by CS’ ensuring that much clearer and more detailed information was given not only on the website, but also over the phone and in booking offices when travellers were booking their accommodation. I can honestly say that, having booked standard class berths over the phone and at station booking offices in the days when sharing was allowed, no mention was ever made of the need to share the cabin with a stranger. The website did say so, but not as clearly as it could have done in my view. Had a passenger unfamiliar with the service used either of those booking channels, it may never have been made clear to them that this would be expected to them. In addition, I wonder whether there is anything more that the crews on the train itself can do to put unfamiliar travellers at ease? Fortunately they have gone back to the old check-in system now, and once again hosts are asking travellers if they’ve travelled before, so hopefully they can be given a quick introduction to the service and be reassured that they’re in safe hands.
 

alistairlees

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Depends on the quantities... if you have an even number of customers you are OK, if you have an odd number, then if that odd number is 1, yes you make a loss but if it's say 5 then the picture is different - you have 4 cabins which can earn you more than they would if occupied with solo travellers, and 1 which makes less.
Not so quick. Your example is true if everyone is going between the same two places. This is because NRS (the National Reservation System) will only allow a booking for two berths in the same compartment if both the origin and the destination are the same (presumably to prevent one person being disturbed by another getting up many hours beforehand). So it worked reasonably well (I mean efficiently) on the Lowlander, where most people were travelling from London to Glasgow / Edinburgh (or vice versa). It didn't work at all on the Highlander, where regulars were adept at booking (e.g.) Roy Bridge to London, then getting on at Fort William. Hey presto! A solo cabin for a reduced price, and with almost zero risk of sharing.
 

MrEd

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Sharing should still be an option, albeit at a knocked down price. When selecting, it should clearly state before you complete the purchase that you will be sharing with a member of the same sex, hence the knock down price.

This seems a very fair and sensible solution. As long as passengers are informed, there should be no problem. I would probably have four tiers of fares (as well as the seats)- classic shared with stranger, classic solo, club room and Caledonian suite; the former two would be standard class fares, and the latter two first (with en-suite facilities and other first class benefits). That way, those who emphatically don’t want to share but don’t need/can’t afford the first class options can still have the option of a solo berth, while those who are prepared to share can enjoy a discounted classic berth with lounge car access and all the normal benefits of a classic berth (but for two thirds of the solo price). As long as the information was very clear, and the telesales outlet and booking offices understood the distinctions between all four tiers of accommodation, this would be a win-win situation I think.
 

MrEd

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Not so quick. Your example is true if everyone is going between the same two places. This is because NRS (the National Reservation System) will only allow a booking for two berths in the same compartment if both the origin and the destination are the same (presumably to prevent one person being disturbed by another getting up many hours beforehand). So it worked reasonably well (I mean efficiently) on the Lowlander, where most people were travelling from London to Glasgow / Edinburgh (or vice versa). It didn't work at all on the Highlander, where regulars were adept at booking (e.g.) Roy Bridge to London, then getting on at Fort William. Hey presto! A solo cabin for a reduced price, and with almost zero risk of sharing.

Haha I know and remember that trick all too well... Watford Junction to Carrbridge (once this became a stop on the northbound highlander) was a notorious one on the northbound Inverness portion... frequently the hosts heard ’I needed to be in London anyway so I thought I’d get it from Euston, oh, and by the way, I’ve just realised I’ve got a friend I want to see in Inverness tomorrow morning, can I stay on all the way to Inverness...’ understandably some (especially London) crews saw through this and insisted that the anytime singles from Euston to Watford and Carrbridge to Inverness were purchased (if only to try to discourage it), whereas other crews not only tolerated it but practically encouraged it. The sleeper fare was probably the same anyway (although it did result in revenue loss in that the cheap standard cabin was now almost guaranteed to be occupied by only one person).

I bet some of the Lowlander passengers did routes like Falkirk/Dumbarton or Helensburgh/Inverkeithing to Euston as there’d be less chance of sharing on these routes than on the Lowlander from Edinburgh/Glasgow.

I did myself often travel Euston to Spean Bridge and even once Crewe to Spean Bridge in standard, but this was a genuine journey, because Spean Bridge was actually a more convenient stop for the bus north to Glenshiel (and I therefore always got off at Spean). But the fact that some regular passengers went to considerable lengths to avoid sharing (I.e. booking a false start point and destination) does make me sceptical about how far they were prepared to share... the result was that the cheap standard cabins often had one bunk carrying fresh air... Why would you go to great lengths to think of obscure start points and destinations to cheat the system if you didn’t mind sharing (or were apparently willing to share)? I get the impression that some folk wanted to have their cake and eat it here... they wanted cheap fares but they’d still do everything they can to avoid sharing... this is not actually that good for the TOC’s revenue.

Admittedly only regular travellers would know how to play the system, but it still means that if occasional highlander users do genuinely intend to travel to/from the more obscure intermediate stations (because it’s close to their accommodation/walk start), there’s almost zero chance of being made to share (and therefore one bunk carries fresh air).
 
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JModulo

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Looks like the Northbound Lowlander is set for a late departure tonight, with the empty stock not left yet. "Technical issue" at Wembley.
 

BRX

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Not so quick. Your example is true if everyone is going between the same two places. This is because NRS (the National Reservation System) will only allow a booking for two berths in the same compartment if both the origin and the destination are the same (presumably to prevent one person being disturbed by another getting up many hours beforehand). So it worked reasonably well (I mean efficiently) on the Lowlander, where most people were travelling from London to Glasgow / Edinburgh (or vice versa). It didn't work at all on the Highlander, where regulars were adept at booking (e.g.) Roy Bridge to London, then getting on at Fort William. Hey presto! A solo cabin for a reduced price, and with almost zero risk of sharing.
Ah. Ok, but then that's a problem with the booking system. The tail wagging the dog again. If the booking system makes the whole thing inefficient - change the booking system! Don't penalise the passengers!
 

bastien

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Many years ago I was on an overnight St Petersburg to Moscow sleeper and that very thing happened, luckily not to me but to others in the group I was travelling with.

The following morning the guide from Intourist (the old Soviet state tourism company) shrugged and said words to the effect of “yeah we know that sort of thing happens from time to time”
Yes it always happened to someone else.
 

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