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Northern Rail could be re-nationalised

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Grumpy Git

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Story just published on the BBC website here:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-50067806
The government is considering whether the management of the North of England's largest rail commuter service should be taken into public hands.

Transport Secretary Grant Shapps said Northern's poor performance, with trains regularly arriving late or not at all, "cannot continue".

Mr Shapps said he had issued a "request for proposals" from the firm and the Operator of Last Resort (OLR).

This could lead to services being brought into direct government control.

Giving evidence to the Commons' Transport Select Committee, Mr Shapps said: "As a fellow long-suffering commuter, I entirely believe we cannot carry on just thinking it is OK for trains not to arrive, or Sunday services not to be in place. That has to change."
I wonder if they'll manage to make it "profitable" so they can sell it off cheap to their city mates in a couple of years?
 
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LNW-GW Joint

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The BBC is so on the ball it has illustrated the story with pictures of Chiltern trains at London Marylebone...
It was also discussed by Grant Shapps in the Transport Select Committee hearing today.
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/transport-select-committee-grant-shapps.193651/

PS After an hour or so, they've managed to find a picture of a 319 at Oxford Road...

PPS But the version on the rolling news section of the BBC Business site now has a picture of an XC 22x (well at least it's an Arriva train).
 
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Bletchleyite

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I find it curious that services operated by the OLR such as LNER or possibly now Northern are considered renationalised, as the OLR is a set of commercial companies operating under contract, not a Government-owned organisation like DOR was.

Surely the current OLR is basically operating management contracts, the same as if a management contract was to be awarded to Arriva?
 

jfollows

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Today's Times also reported this, my perspective is that I've pretty much given up using Northern from Wilmslow because I have a choice and find the Virgin service more reliable even though they've had to travel >160 miles from London before getting to Wilmslow in the down direction. 08:27 to Manchester and 10:55 back today for a dental appointment, all on time.

(Oh no, sorry, the 08:27 wasn't on time because it was held up from Wilmslow by the 319 on 2H42 Crewe-Manchester running 10 minutes late, having left Crewe and Sandbach on time but then put into Chelford loop to allow the late-running 1H14 from Birmingham to pass it. Not Northern's fault, then!)

I have monitored the Sunday services and the number of cancellations is intolerable, I agree. I think made worse by having an efficient, reliable and modern service prior to May 2018, whereas I recognise that some parts of the Northern network have always had a dire service.

Oh, and the picture is better than the BBC's; that said the BBC used to illustrate all rail stories with a 4-VEP, didn't they?

Northern Rail could be renationalised, says Grant Shapps
new
Graeme Paton, Transport Correspondent


October 16 2019, 12:00pm, The Times
methode%2Ftimes%2Fprod%2Fweb%2Fbin%2F96a8de92-effb-11e9-94c6-2c5cc7bfde9a.jpg

Only 55.2 per cent of Northern trains reached stations within a minute of their scheduled arrival in the year to the end of June

One of the country’s biggest train operators could be renationalised because of repeated concerns over the number of late-running services, the transport secretary said today.

Grant Shapps said that the government was considering hauling Northern Rail out of private ownership and placing it in the hands of a state-owned operator.

He told MPs today that Northern, which operates across a vast area of the north of England, “cannot continue” delivering such poor levels of punctuality.

Addressing the cross-party commons transport committee, he said that he had requested proposals from the so-called “operator of last resort” – an arm of the government tasked with replacing failing rail companies – to take over Northern. Northern, which is run by German state-owned Arriva, has also been asked to draw up its own proposals to dramatically improve the service.

Mr Shapps said that writing to both Arriva and the state-owned operator was only the “first phase” of the process and declined to comment further on the next steps.

It is believed that a decision could be made in coming months into whether to replace the private operator.

It would be the second rail franchise to be brought back into state hands after Virgin Trains East Coast was stripped of its contract last year when the owners over-bid and effectively ran out of money attempting to keep up with payments. Virgin East Coast was replaced by London North Eastern Railway which is also run by the operator of last resort.

Renationalising a second railway line would be a significant step for a Conservative government which backs private operation of the railway. It comes ahead of the publication of a major review of the rail system led by Keith Williams, the former chief executive of British Airways, which is expected to demand the end of the present franchising system.

Train control was privatised in the mid-90s and companies bid for contracts to run particularle lines, usually for seven years.

Northern serves more than 500 stations, covering Nottingham and Stoke-on-Trent to the south to Carlisle to the north. It serves big cities including Liverpool, Manchester, Leeds, Bradford, Sheffield, Hull and Newcastle-upon-Tyne.

Northern was among a number of rail operators heavily criticised over the timetable fiasco last summer when hundreds of trains a day were cancelled.

Speaking today, Mr Shapps insisted that while other companies had since improved Northern was still struggling to deliver high standards.

Latest figures published by the Office of Rail and Road show that only 55.2 per cent of Northern trains reached stations within a minute of their scheduled arrival in the year to the end of June, down by 1.5 percentage points compared with 2018. By comparison, 64.7 per cent of trains nationally were on time, up by 2.5 percentage points year-on-year.

It has also been criticised over delays in the withdrawal of Pacer trains – 80s-built “buses on rails” which are repeatedly criticised as slow and uncomfortable. They will run into next year despite repeated promises that they would be replaced by the end of 2019.

Transport for the North – the group representing city leaders from the north of England – wrote to the government in the summer calling for the vast franchise to be taken back into state hands.

Mr Shapps confirmed for the first time that the state operator had been approached about a possible takeover of the franchise.

He told MPs: “You may have seen recent speculation in the press about the sustainability of the Northern franchise and I can tell the committee that I have already requested proposals from both Arriva and the operator of last resort because I consider that it cannot continue delivering the in current delivery method. We know the financial pressures have been talked about in recent speculation.”

However, he said: “A request for proposals is to kick that process off. I entirely believe that this cannot go on. As a fellow long-suffering user I entirely believe that we cannot go on just thinking it’s okay for trains to not arrive, for Sunday services to not be in place and so on and so forth. That simply has to change.”

David Brown, the managing director of Northern, said the biggest challenges facing the company were repeated delayed upgrades to the rail infrastructure, which is the responsibility of Network Rail, and strike action by unions. He said that the government had asked the company to prepare a business plan for a short extension of its existing franchise.

“We are well under way with the development of that plan, which will see the completion of our transformation programme,” he said. “Arriva and Northern remain fully committed to delivering the transformation of the North’s railways and improving customers’ experience.

“We are delivering the biggest transformation of local rail for a generation, with 29 of our 101 new trains in service from Monday and driver training taking place on dozens more trains right now. Alongside 2,000 extra services per week, this is part of a £600 million investment in improving customers’ experience; we are continuing to invest in better stations, better offers for customers and more recruitment.

“These discussions have no impact on rail services for customers. Our job is to continue to provide the best service possible for our customers whilst any discussions are taking place.”
 
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Is it Northern's problem though? In that is it something they themselves can fix.
One only has to look at some of the paths along side line capacity...
The amount of times I see a Northern train sitting at a signal waiting for class 1 trains to pass makes me wonder.
Then on top of that you have the crew problems...
 

Tetchytyke

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Surely the current OLR is basically operating management contracts, the same as if a management contract was to be awarded to Arriva

Indeed. The OLR at LNER even kept on the managers responsible for the failure.

Not that it'll change owt at Northern. Most of the issues aren't due to Arriva, they're due to DafT trying (and failing!) to play hardball on DOO.
 

LMS 4F

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Whilst I have no connection with Northern in anyway other than being a passenger from time to time, I feel that whoever gets this poisoned chalice is on a hiding to nothing.
Surely what is needed is for Politicians and Civil Servants, most of whom never ride on a Northern train, to accept the fact that the services it provides are a necessary Public Service, and should be treated as such.
For too long it has been short of everything that it needed to succeed. Even the long overdue injection of some new stock is far less than needed to give a decent service over the Northern network and many services, including the ones I use regularly will still be using 30 year old units which have been through many hands.
The old saying goes, pay peanuts, get monkeys. I apologise to any monk us who may read this.
 

Grumpy Git

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For me the fact that Northern got 30 year-old 319's following the Liverpool - Manchester electrification (whilst Southern got new trains), tells you everything you need to know about how the country is viewed from Westminster.

All the hot-air spoken about climate change is bullcarp as well whilst vast swathes of northern lines have no OLE.
 

Bletchleyite

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Most of the issues aren't due to Arriva, they're due to DafT trying (and failing!) to play hardball on DOO.

Without starting a DOO debate, that isn't true. A significant number of the issues are caused by the same issue plaguing LNR at the moment - overcomplicated and inadequately resilient diagramming and timetabling.
 

Bletchleyite

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For me the fact that Northern got 30 year-old 319's following the Liverpool - Manchester electrification (whilst Southern got new trains), tells you everything you need to know about how the country is viewed from Westminster.

Does it?

Northern got new trains as well as 319s.
London Northwestern Railway got new trains as well as 319s.

The 319s are welcome here because they provide valuable additional capacity. If you don't want yours, feel free to chuck them our way. We'll happily have some more 12-car formations out of Euston in the peaks.
 

Djgr

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Can I just say "Northern must go". They have not had a great hand but the way they have played it shows that they are truly Top of the Flops.

I believe in nationalisation but if we have to have private companies involved aka Bus Bandits then they should either deliver or be sacked. I don't believe in paying Senior Managers and Directors mega££££££ for failure.
 
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mde

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I find it curious that services operated by the OLR such as LNER or possibly now Northern are considered renationalised, as the OLR is a set of commercial companies operating under contract, not a Government-owned organisation like DOR was.
It doesn't seem much different to other companies owned by the Government - Network Rail comes to mind as one, as does the companies owned by HMRC and DWP that provide their IT services. The company itself is wholly owned by the Government, but, a set of professional managers is doing the day-to-day running rather than a DfT civil servant.

Truthfully, I ponder if this charade is being played out so the Government can be seen to be "doing something"; Grayling threatened to nationalise Northern last year (around the same time as making those same threats re GTR), and, yet, ended up doing nothing. Are the finances really at the point where DaFT would step in, or, is it some political bluster?
 

PR1Berske

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Arriva had to deal with an intransigent, goal shifting RMT of course, which didn't help.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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Truthfully, I ponder if this charade is being played out so the Government can be seen to be "doing something"; Grayling threatened to nationalise Northern last year (around the same time as making those same threats re GTR), and, yet, ended up doing nothing. Are the finances really at the point where DaFT would step in, or, is it some political bluster?

Shapps has hung his hat on "making the trains run on time".
So Northern is at the bottom of the punctuality pile at 57% and ripe for action.
This may be more important to him than financial performance.
The other major issue for him (as he told the TSC today) is decarbonising transport.
He then went on to say that road and air transport were the main offenders, but he doesn't much like the 2040 target for getting rid of diesel-only trains.
 

Andyh82

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I’m in favour of renationalising Northern as it would finally quash the myth that nationalisation is the solution to all the network’s problems.

Under an operator of last resort I imagine we will have all the same issues as we do now under Arriva

There will be the same network congestion, the same number and quality of rolling stock, the same number of staff and the same contracts those staff operate under, the same infrastructure problems, the same fares...
 

cactustwirly

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For me the fact that Northern got 30 year-old 319's following the Liverpool - Manchester electrification (whilst Southern got new trains), tells you everything you need to know about how the country is viewed from Westminster.

All the hot-air spoken about climate change is bullcarp as well whilst vast swathes of northern lines have no OLE.

Southern getting new trains is irrelevant really, it's not as if the 319s are getting replaced by brand new 331s :rolleyes:
 

Killingworth

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The whole structure of railways makes it almost totally dependent on the whims of government, whether nationalised in name or not. Williams may suggest a better model but so much is impossible to change for decades, whether we can finance it, or plan it.

All those delayed or shelved Northern Hub projects. Delayed new rolling stock. Delayed refurbished rolling stock. A franchise commitment that requires levels of service the network can't support.

Whoever is responsible in future will face all those issues just the same, and industrial relations on top.

Good luck to them. I'll not expect a great deal of difference day to day, and it could get even worse.
 

Gems

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The problems began with the franchise itself. Far too much to introduce in too short a time. Here is a few issues.

1) The old Arriva trains North, and First North Western, should never have been merged. It has made harmonisation impossible, it has led the organised chaos on the west side, and now they have dragged in parts of Transpennine.

2) Trying to introduce DOO when they didn't even have a train capable of it.

3) Replacing well oiled railway staff with people who have no idea of railway issues.

4) Leasing 331 and 195 units, rushing the orders because of unrealistic demands on the pacer demise timetable. The 331's and 195 are a utter disaster to be quite frank. Riddled with problems, unreliable, over reliant on software.

Grayling started all this, He's the culprit.
 

No Spirit

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Does anyone recall a much earlier attempt by Arriva to operate trains in the north-east? They featured in a tv documentary which nominated them as the UK's worst train operator, with the trophy being delivered to their Sunderland head office. In spite of subsequently losing that franchise they were deemed suitable to operate even more of the north of England.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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Grayling started all this, He's the culprit.

Actually he isn't.
The Northern franchise was specified and let by Patrick McLoughlin, his predecessor, in 2015.
McLoughlin also overrode his officials (who said new trains were unaffordable) to ensure Northern got them.

Northern's two worst problems, late delivery of Manchester-Blackpool electrification and the timetable crash in 2018 were both largely Network Rail's failings.
 
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Gems

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Actually he isn't.
The Northern franchise was specified and let by Patrick McLoughlin, his predecessor, in 2015.
McLoughlin also overrode his officials (who said new trains were unaffordable) to ensure Northern got them.

Northern's two worst problems, late delivery of Manchester-Blackpool electrification and the timetable crash in 2018 were both largely Network Rail's failing.
Actually he is. Although you are right with the timeline. Grayling flatly refused to see any issues. Far too busy bashing those who knew what a train was.
You think network rails failing were major do you. Wait until you learn of the issues with the new stock. It will all come out in the wash one day.
 

Djgr

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It might if you get rid of some of the PR jockey's and find proper railway people again.

I'm astonished by the number of people on here who think Northern can do no wrong and that Northern are the wronged party!
 

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As a regular on the Tyne Valley and Cumbrian Coast lines, Northern has not been much use - late and cancelled trains seem to be common when I'm travelling. I'm still waiting to see if the stuff replacing the pacers and the higher frequency timetable on the former route actually last the course.
 

StoneRoad

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The lack of joined up timetabling is a real problem at Carlisle, at least for me - I regularly try changing from Cumbrian Coast to the Tyne Valley, one arrives slightly early and then get held outside, just to watch what would be a decent connection (for those able to move quickly over to the far side of the station) pull out ... over an hour to wait ...
 

LNW-GW Joint

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You think network rails failing were major do you. Wait until you learn of the issues with the new stock. It will all come out in the wash one day.

There are detailed industry reports saying so.
The electrification delay doesn't need explanation, while the timetable chaos was attributed to lack of oversight by NR's System Operator function (also linked to the electrification problems).
It also badly affected multiple operators, not just Northern.
I'm not excusing Northern at all, but I don't like facts being trashed.
Northern were also entirely responsible for specifying and introducing the new trains - that's not DfT's fault.
 

Djgr

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There are detailed industry reports saying so.
The electrification delay doesn't need explanation, while the timetable chaos was attributed to lack of oversight by NR's System Operator function (also linked to the electrification problems).
It also badly affected multiple operators, not just Northern.
I'm not excusing Northern at all, but I don't like facts being trashed.
Northern were also entirely responsible for specifying and introducing the new trains - that's not DfT's fault.

and their new bespoke ticket machines and their bespoke Penalty Fares scheme.
 

PR1Berske

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I'm astonished by the number of people on here who think Northern can do no wrong and that Northern are the wronged party!
Arriva cannot be blamed for many of the external factors - including electrification, delay in new stock, and industrial action.
 

Dr Hoo

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Can I just say "Northern must go". They have not had a great hand but the way they have played it shows that they are truly Top of the Flops.

I believe in nationalisation but if we have to have private companies involved aka Bus Bandits then they should either deliver or be sacked. I don't believe in paying Senior Managers and Directors mega££££££ for failure.

For ease of reference is there any chance that you could post a link to the company accounts that presumably contain some detail of these remunerations?

Thanks.
 
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