Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
As they interact it is difficult to propose changes to Northern without also changing TPE.
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Ideas to simplify the Northern rail network and improve reliability and financial viability
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As they interact it is difficult to propose changes to Northern without also changing TPE.
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The Cumbria services are Chat Moss and Wigan. If they were to be transferred to Chorley/Bolton then the Airport - Blackpool would need to revert to the Chat Moss route. - I cannot see any justification for that!!
spionkop64
Member
The franchise may well be split into NW and NE sections, with respective city regions, or groupings of city regions/local authorities, made accountable for rail services in the north, thus transferring issues of under-funding and political pressure from central government to local government. Hey presto, the problem has vanished as far as Westminster is concerned.
And as if by magic the trains start to disappear, just like the buses.
Bevan Price
Established Member
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- 22 Apr 2010
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- 7,341
The whole situation needs a series of solutions before things can start to improve., e.g.
1. Shut the Department for Roads & Other Transport (a.k.a. DfT). Recruit a few people who "know" about real-life railway operations.
2. Stop buying trains over-stuffed with computerised sensors & operating systems.
3. Re-integrate TPE into Northern.
4. Stop trying to put too many trains on an infrastructure incapable of catering for that number of trains.
5. Instead of 4, obtain and use longer trains, running less frequently on some lines.
6. As part of 5, accept & act upon the fact that 2 coach trains are totally inadequate for services almost entirely in urban areas, serving large towns & cities.
Even 3 coach trains are often inadequate, given that changes arising from disability access have reduced seating capacity.
7. Don't plan timetables without ensuring that you have sufficient staff - and allowing for typical absence levels due to sickness, holidays, etc.
1. Shut the Department for Roads & Other Transport (a.k.a. DfT). Recruit a few people who "know" about real-life railway operations.
2. Stop buying trains over-stuffed with computerised sensors & operating systems.
3. Re-integrate TPE into Northern.
4. Stop trying to put too many trains on an infrastructure incapable of catering for that number of trains.
5. Instead of 4, obtain and use longer trains, running less frequently on some lines.
6. As part of 5, accept & act upon the fact that 2 coach trains are totally inadequate for services almost entirely in urban areas, serving large towns & cities.
Even 3 coach trains are often inadequate, given that changes arising from disability access have reduced seating capacity.
7. Don't plan timetables without ensuring that you have sufficient staff - and allowing for typical absence levels due to sickness, holidays, etc.
But if Northern are so bad, and Westminster so untrustworthy, then what is the solution? What's your solution?
I haven't got one, if I did have a solution to fix it then i'd be earning bigger bucks somewhere. But handing it over to already underfunded local authorities isn't the answer.
Northern is allegedly a brand name for life.
Which doesn’t help when people complain about overcrowding and lack of new trains, and Northern respond by saying they ordered new trains at the start of the franchise and to give them time. The customer then comes back saying that they’ve been waiting for 15 years...
Killingworth
Established Member
Hang on, that doesn't even pick up all of Yorkshire. Call it Northumbrian Rail - rail north of the Humber, the Humber - Mersey border below which sits Mercia.
philthetube
Established Member
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Maybe the problem is that they are not paying the rate to get someone capable of doing the job.
A chunk of Northerns problems could be solved at a stroke by offering time and a half for Sunday working, and for Sundays to be rostered, something which a new operator might be able to do.
Central England Railway! C&ER!
Be careful what you wish for....
“Take control” of Northern to make sure future looks positive for an election, and then have no awkward company losing money if you decide to force through DOO. In fact if I was doing it I would split Northern into several companies shadowing devolved units and DOO them one at a time - legislation wouldn't allow RMT to strike at more than one unit (they would be forced to strike against a ‘lack of guarantee’ which isn’t great PR)
“Take control” of Northern to make sure future looks positive for an election, and then have no awkward company losing money if you decide to force through DOO. In fact if I was doing it I would split Northern into several companies shadowing devolved units and DOO them one at a time - legislation wouldn't allow RMT to strike at more than one unit (they would be forced to strike against a ‘lack of guarantee’ which isn’t great PR)
quantinghome
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- 1 Jun 2013
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Why should rolling out DOO be considered the overarching aim, to the extent that you restructure the organisation with that objective? Seems to be the tail wagging the dog.
Many on the union side seem to think a major aim of the Tories is to break the RMT via imposition of DOO. I was assuming that to be true for the sake of the example.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
2 car trains are the main problem as they are not only not big enough for most normal flows, they have inadequate spare capacity for the event of disruption. 3-car should really be the minimum except on small self-contained branch lines.
ElectroSoldier
Member
But for a service late at night which is what they were expecting a 2 car train would be enough.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
It would, but as they are basically no use from about 0700 to about 1800 there is no point having any.
underbank
Established Member
Which is another problem with Northern. Why are there so few "self contained branch lines"? You can't possibly have direct trains from every town to every town, so changes/connections are inevitable. Short branches such as Oxenholme<>Windermere and Lancaster<>Morecambe are obvious choices for a two car DMU trundling up and down all day. It's what used to happen, so why and when did that change? Surely longer and more complicated routes just make it harder for train crew training/knowledge, getting stock into the right place after disruptions, reducing knock on effects of delays etc??
Strange world where between 6pm & 7pm is "late at night", & there's an entire set of small trains just for those later services.
What's wrong with the trains that would be on the service in the daytime?
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
My personal view is that they should probably extend all the 195s to 3-car and standardise on that (or doubled up for very busy trains).
The question to ask is surely, If we were starting tomorrow would we do it like this? The answer has to be no.
Remote branch lines with a limited service, not over used as against commuter routes into major cities with thousands to move back and forwards morning and evening.
The requirement for different stock for these services, multiple depots and part electrification all adds up to a shambles whoever is in charge.
There is no doubt that the present management haven't excelled but they didn't have much of a chance to start with.
Remote branch lines with a limited service, not over used as against commuter routes into major cities with thousands to move back and forwards morning and evening.
The requirement for different stock for these services, multiple depots and part electrification all adds up to a shambles whoever is in charge.
There is no doubt that the present management haven't excelled but they didn't have much of a chance to start with.
chris_in_salop
Member
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- 175
Presumably breaking up through routes would be extremely unpopular with the railway's customers. It may well be more operationally convenient to run lots of short services, but surely the paying customer wants a direct train to a large city hub, ideally where there are toilets, food/drink options and shelter from the rain. Lancaster may have these things, but I don't think Oxenholme does. Anything less than this makes the train less attractive than a private car.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
I have wondered if it would make sense to operate the Lakes and Furness DMU service group to/from Lancaster bays, with that area improved with a decent welcoming portal, info boards etc a bit like the S&C/Hadrian's Wall Line area at Carlisle. A Manchester Airport to Carlisle EMU service (6-car Class 331) could substitute for the Manchester Airport services. Dedicated, named and branded Class 195s could be used, and staffing diagrams, importantly, totally self contained to those services (with connections to Carlisle at Barrow, and those again staffed by a dedicated set of crews), possibly with all crews and units Barrow based. The cycle racks could be moved elsewhere to free up that area as a mini-concourse. The timetable could be fully clockface hourly from start to end of service.
But going back to the idea of self-contained branches - if that came with a proper Taktfahrplan, changing would be no major stress.
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underbank
Established Member
The windermere<>Man Airport is only every 3 hours anyway, and you still have to change if you want to go North (Carlisle/Glasgow) or anywhere other than Manchester, i.e. Birmingham, Liverpool, London, so the direct service is only beneficial for a minority anyway. Between the 3 hourly, the train does a couple of shuttles.
Why is a direct link to Manchester so special, when there are no direct trains to all the other major towns & cities in the North?
A more regular/permanent shuttle would benefit far more people as they could connect better with all kinds of services at Oxenholme, or even better, run them through to Lancaster to connect with even more services.
Local stakeholders would kick off if direct trains were axed in favour of a local branch line service. I can think of one Cumbrian MP in particular. Opposition MPs and metro mayors would then make it a manifesto issue to bring back the direct link.
underbank
Established Member
Depends if the shuttle was better, i.e. more regular, more frequent, linked to a wider range of services etc. It's a numbers game. Make it better for more people than are disadvantaged and you've a winner.
Shame that Preston doesn't have north facing bays as it would make the most sense running Barrow and Windermere service there (and not further wasting capacity beyond there) and then connecting with a more reliable 2tph with long 6 car 319/331 units to Hazel Grove/Man Airport in addition to the 1tph TPE Scotland- Man Airport. This would be a more sensible use of capacity through to the Castlefield corridor.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Platforms 5 and 6 can be used for terminating trains, and were used for terminating Barrows and Windermeres before more through running was restored. But my experience of those trains was that they were VERY quiet south of Lancaster, and so through running was pointless. Typically through services to Manchester Airport from Barrow would near tip out at Lancaster and pick up an entire set of new passengers at Preston for Manchester. Those not continuing past Preston would be driver, guard, me, bloke, dog and bicycle, as it were.
Windermeres carry more passengers to the Airport (a LOT of Chinese tourists, interestingly), so if anything there would be more logic, particularly after it's wired, to swap them over - hourly Airport-Windermere 4-car EMU and hourly Barrow only from Lancaster (3-car Class 195), or even run it as an hourly through Lancaster to Carlisle service - it's very close to being hourly now, so again that would be a good simplification with the whole thing using dedicated units and crewed entirely from Barrow, again fully clockface all day.
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