Is this deal as good as the deal we currently have? That's got to be the decisive factor for anyone who is interested in the future of the country surely?
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EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...
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Mvann
Member
So presumably if the majority take charge for the extension they would also have to choose someone to put forward as a commissioner?
Puffing Devil
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Unfortunately, many people do not like the deal that we have now. Many of those are unable to articulate why. Many of those used to haunt this thread, though have become unexpectedly silent now the endgame is in sight.
telstarbox
Established Member
Potentially some of the 21 Tory rebels and the "Labour for a Deal" MPs might... but the numbers would still be very tight.
nlogax
Established Member
I guess it will all come down to 'Super Saturday' as it's being dubbed in various places. We're potentially reaching the end of this three year, fourteen dimensional game of international Connect 4.
edwin_m
Veteran Member
One of the several court actions rumbling on is about whether the court can appoint someone to request an extension if Boris refuses to do so when required by law.
They mainly voted for May's deal but would be less inclined to do so for a deal that is further from a "soft" Brexit. So fewer of them might support it unless they thought the alternative would be no deal, which the Benn Act has probably ruled out in the short term.
Don't you mean "Disconnect 4" (ever)? Actually it's not complicated at all, it boils down to:
To which the answer is unequivocally "no". And nobody in this forum has given any reason to believe otherwise in the six months or so I've been following it. All the extra complication is about people who have been going to any lengths not to answer this question, or to intimidate those who do answer it.
DaleCooper
Established Member
The arrangement whereby duty is paid on goods going from GB to NI only if there's a risk of them crossing into Ireland seems like a recipe for fraud or have I misunderstood it?
I can see a lot of businesses in NI getting suspiciously large 'warehouses'.
But, but , but....! Will of the people....<wibble wibble>.... Taking back control...<wibble wibble>...Remoaners...<wibble wibble>....
There are many who'd say that you have been for a few years unfortunately
We do see that, I met several enlightened people when I was in England this summer who apologized for the behaviour of the country and ensured us that Boris Johnson does not represent them. Although not surprising in a town that voted 70% remain?
However we also see people on the other side of the debate. And what kind of people you send to the European parliament:
But I really hope you manage to solve this mess soon.
DynamicSpirit
Established Member
Not only that, but unless I've misunderstood it, it sounds like a recipe for injustice. The aim is presumably to charge duty on those goods that actually do cross into the EU. But if you approach it by charging duty on anything that you deem to be 'at risk' of crossing into the EU, then you are inevitably going to end up (a) charging duty on some stuff that is actually destined to be consumed in Northern Ireland, and (b) not charging duty on some stuff that does end up going into the EU. Neither of those seems very fair.
YorkshireBear
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Boris doesn't have to not ask for an extension. I believe the EU has said they won't grant one, this is the deal.
cactustwirly
Established Member
It's basically May's deal, but with customs checks at ports and Airports instead of the backdrop
Peter Kelford
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There is a loophole in the sense of 'private citizen to citizen' and travellers' baggage products are not subject to tariffs. There's also a 'negligible value' clause. Surely there's some exploitation to be had there?
Yes the labelling of expensive goods as "Gifts" or of no monetary value in the hope that customs don't look closer at the package.
edwin_m
Veteran Member
They've previously said they will grant an extension for a referendum or an election. Has that changed? Unless it has, then it's still compatible with not negotiating further - they could tell us we have to take it or leave it (or remain of course) but we don't need to decide which until a later date.
It may however not allow Corbyn to negotiate an alternative deal, as he has promised to do if he wins an election.
AlterEgo
Veteran Member
We cannot have automatic invocation of a referendum; Parliament is sovereign, not the citizens.
And it would be an Act of Parliament that sets the result of the referendum.
edwin_m
Veteran Member
I don't see why Parliament wouldn't be allowed to pass an Act that says the result of the referendum must come to pass. Although it would also have the power to amend or repeal that Act at any time before any leaving date.
nlogax
Established Member
Saturday's going to be too much. Maybe a good day to turn off the phone, avoid the TV, get some fresh air..
Does London air count as fresh? https://www.peoples-vote.uk/march_for_final_say
Peter Kelford
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Or just the 'exchange of gifts' i.e. barter trading. Similarly, a railway modeller may want to label his £1000 brass loco as 'toy' and pay no tax.
Spamcan81
Member
Read properly what as said. Junkers has not actually said there would be no extension - not in his power to grant or deny anyway.
Howardh
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No, it's up to the 27, not the president, negotiator, dinner lady....!
Categorically, *NO* referendum should ever offer No Deal as an option to Joe Public. That's reckless in the extreme. Essentially citzens voting to kill their fellow citizens.
Grumpy Git
On Moderation
Yes but a lot of them have got their fingers in their ears and are shouting "I can't hear you". Utter madness in the extreme.
Busaholic
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Tory whips' estimate of MP's voting behaviour on Saturday, assuming DUP voting against 'deal', as given to BBC reporter tonight = majority of 1 (yes,1) for the government. Take that with a pinch of salt if you wish, but some Labour MPs will vote for it, including some who voted against Theresa May's. Ronnie Campbell, veteran Labour MP, on Newsnight tonight, will be one such. Almost all the expelled-whip Tories will probably vote for it too, although Dominic Grieve may not be among them.
P.S. Update from F.T. tonight, 318 for, 321 against. Wow!
P.S. Update from F.T. tonight, 318 for, 321 against. Wow!
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Grumpy Git
On Moderation
...................... and if you believe what some of the commentators are saying, it actually a worse deal than May's deal? As a small business who imports from Germany, I can tell you the last six months have been a complete write-off.
Makes me glad that I will be spending the day riding around Strathclyde on a Daytripper ticket and having fun !
edwin_m
Veteran Member
We have a choice of a rotten deal for most of the population (either now or if it's voted down and Boris gets a workable majority after an election), an indeterminate new deal (if it's voted down, Corbyn gets a workable majority and the EU can be persuaded to negotiate again) or no deal (which after a great deal of pain and hardship will probably end up with something similar to one of the above). The only other option is if Parliament attaches a referendum and the population is sensible enough to scrap the whole thing as a thoroughly bad idea.
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