Anytime tickets not valid on early trains with senior railcard

trainophile · 17 Oct 2019

Bought Anytime tickets from Christchurch to Southampton Central for use this morning.

However on checking (using the TPE website) to find departure times, I saw that the 0913 was the first train these are valid for with our senior railcards.

Is this something specific to SWR? I know 16-25 railcards have time restrictions but have never encountered this with senior cards.

Luckily the 0913 was fine for us, but could have been tricky otherwise.

RailUK Forums

Ianno87 · 17 Oct 2019

I think there is a restriction on use of Railcards for journeys entirely within the Network Area before 1000 Monday-Friday.

Bletchleyite · 17 Oct 2019

Ianno87 said:
I think there is a restriction on use of Railcards for journeys entirely within the Network Area before 1000 Monday-Friday.

It's not 1000, it's based on the time when Off Peak (Day) tickets become available, or for a local flow where there aren't any Off Peaks it's 0930 I think.

trainophile · 17 Oct 2019

Thanks both. It’s a bit misleading to call them Anytime then. If I hadn’t checked and had got on an earlier train would I have been in trouble?

Bletchleyite · 17 Oct 2019

trainophile said:
Thanks both. It’s a bit misleading to call them Anytime then. If I hadn’t checked and had got on an earlier train would I have been in trouble?

Potentially.

What you have to bear in mind (as many people forget) is that the ticket is an Anytime but the Railcard applies a tighter set of conditions. Essentially the stricter of the two applies.

Railcard discounting Anytime tickets does have a use - for instance if you're travelling out at lunchtime and back in the evening peak.

trainophile · 17 Oct 2019

I must revisit the railcard T&Cs!

alistairlees · 17 Oct 2019

Bletchleyite said:
It's not 1000, it's based on the time when Off Peak (Day) tickets become available, or for a local flow where there aren't any Off Peaks it's 0930 I think.

Correct. Providing the whole of the journey is also within the network railcard area, otherwise this restriction does not apply. It doesn’t apply on Saturdays, Sundays or bank holidays either of course. You will probably find that different TOC websites describe this differently.

extendedpaul · 17 Oct 2019

Assuming this restriction on senior railcards is to reduce its use by London commuters, surely the restriction should be the same for both railcards, whereas the 16-25 railcard is valid with a minimum fare ?

A friend's 20ish daughter works full time in London with a job including some weekends. She saves money, compared with a season ticket, by buying a £13 minimum fare single am, a third off single pm, and day returns at the weekend, all with her 16-25 railcard. The overall saving to be honest isn't a fortune but she considers it worth the effort. A person over 60 doing the same hours could not do likewise on the weekday journey into London.

30907 · 17 Oct 2019

As Railcards are a commercial product, the question is, would a less onerous restriction in NSE-land (and a new one elsewhere, logically) increase the net income of the railway? And then there's the Network card which differs again...

AFAIK the Senior restrictions (ditto the F and F ones, which I am sure didn't apply in the far-off days when we had one) are relatively new, and I suspect are what ATOC would prefer....

Haywain · 17 Oct 2019

30907 said:
AFAIK the Senior restrictions (ditto the F and F ones, which I am sure didn't apply in the far-off days when we had one) are relatively new, and I suspect are what ATOC would prefer....

The restrictions date back at least 18 years* so are hardly 'new' and, if asked, the train companies would probably prefer more onerous restrictions.

*As the railcards in question were about before privatisation and are protected products they presumably date from before 1995.

30907 · 17 Oct 2019

Haywain said:
The restrictions date back at least 18 years* so are hardly 'new' and, if asked, the train companies would probably prefer more onerous restrictions.

*As the railcards in question were about before privatisation and are protected products they presumably date from before 1995.

I only said relatively new! Unless my memory is failing, the restriction on 16-25 has been there since the early 80s and possibly since the tvery first Student Railcards in 1975-ish....

Wallsendmag · 17 Oct 2019

Haywain said:
The restrictions date back at least 18 years* so are hardly 'new' and, if asked, the train companies would probably prefer more onerous restrictions.

*As the railcards in question were about before privatisation and are protected products they presumably date from before 1995.

It's been around as long as I can remember so 30+ years?

sheff1 · 17 Oct 2019

Haywain said:
The restrictions date back at least 18 years* so are hardly 'new' and, if asked, the train companies would probably prefer more onerous restrictions.

*As the railcards in question were about before privatisation and are protected products they presumably date from before 1995.

If Wikipedia is to be believed (and in this case it sounds correct to me) the restrictions date from 1992.

Hadders · 17 Oct 2019

The restriction on the Senior Railcard is to stop commuters obtaining a discount.

The 16-25 Railcard has a less onerous restriction (via a minimum fare). The theory is an older person is probably earning more and so they are better able to pay the full price. Younger people towards the start of their working life generally earn less so if they are doing a long commute they can get a discount.

trainophile · 17 Oct 2019

I don't have any argument with the reasons for this, I just think it's misleading to call it an Anytime ticket. If I hadn't bothered to check what was the best train for us to catch this morning, how would I be supposed to know?

Hadders · 17 Oct 2019

What alternative name would you give the ticket?

trainophile · 17 Oct 2019

Hadders said:
What alternative name would you give the ticket?

Peak Restricted?

sheff1 · 17 Oct 2019

trainophile said:
If I hadn't bothered to check what was the best train for us to catch this morning, how would I be supposed to know?

By looking at the T&Cs for the Senior Railcard, which state:
4.2. Discounts are not available on tickets for travel on morning peak services for journeys that start and end within the London & South East area (defined by the Network Railcard area – network-railcard.co.uk/map) on Monday to Friday (except on public holidays). The time when off-peak services start can vary by station. Use nationalrail.co.uk to plan your journey to identify when off-peak services start or ask rail staff for details

If you don't want the bother of reading the full T&Cs, then the summary page on the Railcard website is equally clear:
"Your Senior Railcard is NOT valid when travelling between two stations inside London and the South East area during morning peak time".

trainophile said:
I know 16-25 railcards have time restrictions but have never encountered this with senior cards.

Strange that you know about restrictions applicable to a railcard you do not qualify for, but not the one you do ... especially when those restrictions have been in place for 27 years.

Haywain · 17 Oct 2019

trainophile said:
Peak Restricted?

But the ticket is not restricted. It is the use of the railcard and its discount that is restricted.

Tetchytyke · 17 Oct 2019

trainophile said:
I just think it's misleading to call it an Anytime ticket

It isn't called an Anytime ticket. It's called an Anytime ticket with a Senior Railcard discount.

The same issue applies on tickets discounted by a TwoTogether railcard.

fairlie · 18 Oct 2019

trainophile said:
I don't have any argument with the reasons for this, I just think it's misleading to call it an Anytime ticket. If I hadn't bothered to check what was the best train for us to catch this morning, how would I be supposed to know?

I have a 16-25 railcard (I'm a mature(r) student...) and I was buying a load of tickets yesterday for when I travel to the University I'm at for various things this term. Some of those (they're generally split ticket combinations) are Anytime Day Singles which are railcard discounted. The booking website says this:

ANYTIME DAY SINGLE £3.35

1 Adult(s) 16-25 Railcard Fare @ £3.35

Valid only for travel via (changing trains or passing through) CITY.

Flexible ticket with no time restrictions on when you can travel.

16-25 RAILCARD : You must carry your railcard with you when you travel. Failure to do so will result in the full undiscounted fare being payable.

Are those tickets officially invalid pre 10am? At present my plans don't involve using them before 10am but were they to change for example should I buy a new ticket, or excess them, or ...?

Haywain · 18 Oct 2019

fairlie said:
Are those tickets officially invalid pre 10am? At present my plans don't involve using them before 10am but were they to change for example should I buy a new ticket, or excess them, or ...?

They’re not valid. As you’re clearly aware, the railcard has a minimum fare before 10:00, so the only tickets valid for travel in that period will be those that where the fare meets the minimum fare level or those without a discount. The validity of the Anytime ticket is amended by the application of the railcard discount.

trainophile · 18 Oct 2019

I didn’t realise Christchurch to Southampton was in “London and the South East”, especially as the trains are run by South Western Rail.

Bletchleyite · 18 Oct 2019

trainophile said:
I didn’t realise Christchurch to Southampton was in “London and the South East”, especially as the trains are run by South Western Rail.

"London and the South East" is the former "Network Area", which includes all of the London commuter TOCs, including SWR. Basically the area in which the Network Railcard is valid, if you want a map.

Haywain · 18 Oct 2019

trainophile said:
I didn’t realise Christchurch to Southampton was in “London and the South East”, especially as the trains are run by South Western Rail.

The are extends to Worcester and Exeter (but not directly between the two) but is principally based on the south east. The specific term used in the Senior Railcard documentation to describe this are is "the London & South East area (defined by the Network Railcard area – network-railcard.co.uk/map)".

trainophile · 18 Oct 2019

Ah, well as someone who normally lives in the sticks I am not familiar with the "Network Area". I suppose it's because that route goes into Waterloo, although I would have thought they need not apply the restriction until Southampton, but fair enough.

WesternLancer · 18 Oct 2019

trainophile said:
Ah, well as someone who normally lives in the sticks I am not familiar with the "Network Area". I suppose it's because that route goes into Waterloo, although I would have thought they need not apply the restriction until Southampton, but fair enough.

Who could possibly have forgotten the Network South east concept, brand (and innovative discounted products like the Network Card, at least in original format)!

As mentioned, it's tentacles stretched quite a long way into the sticks

trainophile · 18 Oct 2019

WesternLancer said:
Who could possibly have forgotten the Network South east concept, brand (and innovative discounted products like the Network Card, at least in original format)!

As mentioned, it's tentacles stretched quite a long way into the sticks

Thanks for the useful information. I didn't "forget" "the Network South East concept", more never needed to know about it in the past. This is possibly the first time in my seven years of railcard ownership that it has cropped up. 99% of my travel is well north of the region concerned, and probably 75% of it is on Advance tickets, so I have never come across this before. I am now much more enlightened, and won't ask about it again!

It's very interesting though, just looking at Hereford to Paddington early in the day, and you do need to be something of an expert to work out the best journey!

WesternLancer · 18 Oct 2019

trainophile said:
Thanks for the useful information. I didn't "forget" "the Network South East concept", more never needed to know about it in the past. This is possibly the first time in my seven years of railcard ownership that it has cropped up. 99% of my travel is well north of the region concerned, and probably 75% of it is on Advance tickets, so I have never come across this before. I am now much more enlightened, and won't ask about it again!

It's very interesting though, just looking at Hereford to Paddington early in the day, and you do need to be something of an expert to work out the best journey!

I was being rather tongue in cheek!

Absolutely agree with you on the last point - and the legacy of a railcard and other use criteria on other tickets / railcards based on a long dismembered former BR sector only serves to increase the levels of passenger confusion that can exist IMHO. But this is far better than the alternative - no doubt a set of TOC by TOC variations in such use times!

kieron · 18 Oct 2019

Bletchleyite said:
It's not 1000, it's based on the time when Off Peak (Day) tickets become available, or for a local flow where there aren't any Off Peaks it's 0930 I think.

For what it's worth, NRE doesn't suggest that there are any time restrictions for a senior railcard on routes like that. There aren't many routes like that in the NSE area, although there are a few in London and on the Isle of Wight.

Anytime tickets not valid on early trains with senior railcard

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