Skymonster's RailTrek

I must try and keep up with the various musical 150s.

Skymonster said:

My question of the day is: do lights count for sight?

I was driving through Castle Donington just after dark this evening and saw somethng passing through on the line below the bridge - it obviously wasn't a long freight, so it was unusual because passenger workings are very rare on the freight line between Stenson Junction and Sheet Stores Junction, except during diversions. It also obviously wasn't something like a Voyager / Meridian / HST. But all I could really see for sure were the front whites and the red rear - otherwise there were no lights. Out of curiosity I checked RTT and found out it was an ECS move from Bristol SPM to Doncaster Works. Further investigation revealed it was 150207 returning to Northern after working for GWR.

So I do not have '207 for sight so far, one of only a few Northern 150s I do need - can I count it?

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I think that the fact you've felt the need to ask would suggest you have enough doubt about logging this as a winner to not do so.

From my apartment I can see a good chunk of the top of locos and units that go past (can ID some of the 350s as the number is high up the front) and I've considered whether I could simply obtain the number from the TOPS thread for these but as I can only see so much of the trains it wouldn't sit comfortably with me

The_Train said:

I think that the fact you've felt the need to ask would suggest you have enough doubt about logging this as a winner to not do so.

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...is the wrong answer Or at least it's the answer I didn't want to hear!

Skymonster said:

...is the wrong answer Or at least it's the answer I didn't want to hear!

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Haha we look for clarification on those things that we don't really think we should be doing

That's why I asked if it was right for me to hunt for milk floats

If you've seen the lights and the body of the train, but not the number and get to confirm what it was (we've all been in similar situations!) then by all means count it!

Many spotters consider that the slippery art of fudging.

Depends on the situation. I mean, let's say you arrived into Carlisle from the S&C and saw a train pulling out towards the south or west. Couldn't quite get its ID but could still see it was, say, a 153. If you then ask the spotters on the end of the platform what one it was, is that fudging?

Techniquest said:

Depends on the situation. I mean, let's say you arrived into Carlisle from the S&C and saw a train pulling out towards the south or west. Couldn't quite get its ID but could still see it was, say, a 153. If you then ask the spotters on the end of the platform what one it was, is that fudging?

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That, I think, is fair enough as you are at least able to identify what the unit is. I had an instance where I got to Stafford just in time to see the back end of a 319 movement towards Crewe so I got the number of it from another spotter there who also told me the number to the unit at the front but as I hadn't seen the front unit I didn't note that down.

That said, @Skymonster's situation is slightly different as he has stated that he could basically see the lights of the unit but nothing else. In fact he couldn't even see enough of it to judge what class it was which, although I've not heard of fudging before, is what @87electric is getting at and is why I think it should be left for another day when he can actually see it.

I think these things are subjective.
For me, if it doesn't "feel" right then it's not.
I am quite strict when it comes to these things, for example if I see the first coach of a unit poking out of a shed but can't see the other vehicles, I won't count it.
So I wouldn't count anything just from seeing the lights in the distance.
At the end of the day, though, it's entirely up to you - your game, your rules.
150207 will be around for a few years yet; I believe it was going to Doncaster for some work but will return to GWR when it's done.

I think 55013 is right, if it doesn't feel right then don't count it. Go with the gut feeling, which in my case I also call my Magic 8 Ball lol

You do all realise that @Skymonster was looking for someone to justify his cheating the system. You lot are really not helping

Personal view:

If you don't identify it yourself then you shouldn't count it.

Relying on someone else, TOPS, gen on a website or some other source of information which may or may not be accurate is fudging.

I remember once being in a discussion on whether you could count something for sight if you had only seen its reflection...

I think that's the other end of extreme to be honest @xotGD. I mean I was at Nuneaton recently and after it went dark I was stood on P2 when a 66 came by but as I was so close to it and with the poor lighting (and my failing eyes) I wasn't able to properly get the number. I definitely saw the locomotive as I was literally a few feet away so surely it would have been daft for me to dismiss it as missed and not make use of the TOPS thread on here? (It was irrelevant in the end as it was a dud but my point stands )

We used to have similar debates many years ago when I was a plane spotter (ugh, I hate that term!). Anyway British Airways aircraft had the last two letters of the registration on the top of the tail, so it was sometimes possible to identify an aircraft parked behind a terminal building without seeing any of the fuselage, wings etc. Many arguments ensued as to whether such were countable, with endless accusations of "fudging" being directed by those who decided 'no' towards those who decided 'yes'. Today almost every aviation enthusiast has access to internet based systems that allow them to identify almost every aircraft cruising overhead on the airways, and many count new sightings on that basis. But occasionally a transponder is set to transmit an incorrect code (case in point, an American Airlines Boeing 777 for a long time broadcast the code allocated to a Cessna 172 four-seat light aircraft - quite amusing seeing one of the latter at 35,000ft doing 550 knots!). So just like TRUST [and TOPS], sometimes these systems can't entirely be... trusted.

It goes to show these sorts of debates will run on and on. At the end of the day, as @55013 suggests, we each play by our own rules and ultimately we have only our own standards and guidelines to satisfy. With that said, I'm quite comfortable that what I saw was 150207 but it will be marked off with a dashed rather than a solid line - a new category I've just invented indicating I've seen it but could do with seeing it again! Ah, the wonders of the classic cop-out!

The_Train said:

I think that's the other end of extreme to be honest @xotGD. I mean I was at Nuneaton recently and after it went dark I was stood on P2 when a 66 came by but as I was so close to it and with the poor lighting (and my failing eyes) I wasn't able to properly get the number. I definitely saw the locomotive as I was literally a few feet away so surely it would have been daft for me to dismiss it as missed and not make use of the TOPS thread on here? (It was irrelevant in the end as it was a dud but my point stands )

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Sounds like a fudge to me!

Anyway, everyone plays by their own rules - same as whether you count all of the units in a formation for haulage/travelage/mileage or just the one you are in.

If you play by tougher rules, then it will take you longer to get everything - and so not have to turn to wagon spotting or counting every door of each DMU for boarding/alighting just to keep your red pen busy.

xotGD said:

...counting every door of each DMU for boarding/alighting just to keep your red pen busy.

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That is a joke, isn't it? One can't be certain...

Someone on a spin and win railtour obviously had whatever loco had switched over for haulage but wouldn't count it for sight as there wasn't an opportunity for him to view it. I forget the reason, too dark, sitting in rear coach, asleep............... Photos exist of course to confirm the loco worked. That's pretty strict.

NorthWestRover said:

That is a joke, isn't it? One can't be certain...

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Not DMUs, but I'm aware of at least one person who did the 'every door' thing on the T&W Metro. I guess if you are commuting on the same things every day it makes the journey a bit more interesting. Until you run out of required doors!

Alighting and boarding by each door.

Each unit on every day of the week.

Every unit from every station.

The possibilities are endless.

Its been a long time - too long in fact. The last eleven months have been pretty barren of rail activity, save for the odd trip to London for business - although I did manage a trip to York with SWMBO and snook in an enjoyable hour or two at the NRM. I also took her on a steam train ride at the SVR (I preferred the trip behind the Class 50 diesel but she was not impressed).

I finally got out to do the 91 move to Leicester about a week ago, although the trip from Derby to Leicester did little to trouble the red pen other than 37146 and 58023 both newly arrived at Leicester LIP (the former having a rather dismal outlook while the prospects for the latter seem somewhat rosier).


Having caught up with the escapades of @The_Train, the KWVR Saturday Diesel and Ale day on October 12th seemed to be a chance not to miss, given the traction was billed to be 20031.

A combination of Cross Country and Northern (221 and 158) got me to Leeds, where I transferred to a 322485 for the half hour ride out to Keighley. I’d already managed to sight 142011 at Sheffield, bringing by Pacer total down to just two - 142030 and 142060 only remaining now. I also snagged another Northern Turbonasty and a much-needed 150 at Sheffield, but only two LNER Satsumas troubled the pen at Leeds.

Keighley is a nice NR station with four platforms, two used by Northern and the other two by the Keighley & Worth Valley Railway. Having crossed the overbridge I quickly descended into another world where time had stood still. Sure the shop sold lattes, but the pace seemed to slow and all the staff were dressed more smartly. Just a tip here - the KWVR all-day over is £18 but an Keithley & WVR add-on to any national rail ticket to Keighley costs just £12 and confers rover privileges, a useful £6 saving.

Very soon the dulcet tones of a chopper started to tickle the eardrums, and the target of the day’s trip - 20031 - hove into view. Having hauled load five down the hill from Oxenhope, she was quickly run around ready for the trip back.


Soon we were off. The KWVR isn’t a long line, but the prevailing up gradient from Keighley or Oxenhope makes for some entertainment in the sound department. There is a small museum at Ingrow West, after which the train continues on to Damems which is a request stop. The two and a half minute journey is an audible delight for lovers of classic traction - turn up the volume on this one, especially as it passes through the tunnel after leaving Ingrow...


A couple of further stops, including Haworth where there is a steam and diesel depot, leads to the far end of the line at Oxenhope where again the 20 ran around. I then elected to stay with the Chopper and slipped back down to Haworth (about five minutes) where I left the train for some much-needed sustenance in the local chippie. I also had a peek at the depot where a class 37 and an 08 kept the DMUs and the kettles company. An hour later the Chopper was back from its trip down to Keighley and I watched it enter the station before retiring to the onboard buffet for another pleasant pint of Heart & Soul IPA.


I rode the line a couple more times behind 20031 before getting a train back to Leeds shortly after 17:00. Sadly the Leeds-Lincoln was a 144, rammed to the gills and late by 24 minutes at Sheffield (Northern delay-repay - here I come) where I managed another quick pint in the Tap before returning to Derby. Sadly no more mainline newcomers for the book during the return home, but I have ticked off all the KWVR diesels having never visited the line before.

KWVR is a beautiful if short line, easily accessed via Leeds and well worth a visit - I will be back again when there is a diesel gala taking place.

While I was “off” I was lucky to catch this ensemble at Derby a few weeks ago:


Again best enjoyed with the volume cranked up, it seems like Network Rail are expect us to have a harsh winter! My next mission again involves Choppers - its the RHTT season and the South Yorkshire circuit beckons, maybe as soon as this week - as it will again enable a combination of classic traction and ale in the Sheffield Tap, maybe sweetened by my last Sheffield tram (I’ve already ridden all the tram-trains).

Welcome back SM

Sounded like a good trip to the KWVR

Some great 20 sounds there and well worth the day out just for that.

The monster is back!!!!

Welcome back mate. Loving those videos of 20s at their best......I've suddenly become regretful about my decision not to visit the KWVR

A massive welcome back from me too!

Shall have to tune into the videos later on, prep for work is currently going on but the thought of 20s thrashing away *drools*

Thank you folks.... it’s been a long cold summer... Next stop Manchester tomorrow (no Choppers) with a sneaky side trip out to sample the beer at Stalybridge

Out and about again... More Choppers... Full report later...

Can't beat a good chopper can you?

The_Train said:

Can't beat a good chopper can you?

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Indeed not Mr Train.

Well the Saturday trip to Manchester via Sheffield yielded a few nice results despite the very wet weather. Knocked back the outstanding Pacers from two to one, reduced the Northern 150 count from six to two, caught another TPE 68 (just one left now), netted the last Northern 323 and managed to take in quite a few 195s. Piccadilly was very empty of trains due to flooding disruption but as usual Victoria provided more entertainment and even allowed six more trams to be ticked off (sadly some ongoing work makes it difficult to monitor heavy rail and light rail at the same time at present). I also managed a “pleasant” ride on an almost empty Pacer (two other passengers) from Victoria to Stalybridge to take in a couple of rather nice pints in the buffet - it was running on only one engine and was struggling so the experience would have been very grim had it been well loaded.

The challenges get greater as the numbers decline, but I’m tempted to make one more trip out to the area before it gets far too cold for my liking - if nothing else but in an attempt to catch the illusive 142030 before it gets condemned. The 195s will hopefully continue to maintain the hit rate for a while yet.

Some of those Victoria - Stalybridge shuttles can be lightly loaded heading towards Stalybridge during the day