Would you consider the pre-MMC Enviros to be 'iconic' in the bus industry?

Would you consider the pre-MMC Enviro E200s, E300s and E400s to be iconic within the bus industry? I would, although personally, I prefer the newer MMC versions as they feel to me more comfortable to travel on.

175mph said:

Would you consider the pre-MMC Enviro E200s, E300s and E400s to be iconic within the bus industry? I would, although personally, I prefer the newer MMC versions as they feel to me more comfortable to travel on.

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Why iconic?

Is it technologically advanced?
Aesthetically stunning?
A step change in design?

None of the above. A Routemaster, a Lodekka, a Leyland National, a Leyland Atlantean were iconic. Even the Dennis Dart - it changed an industry.

Enviros are just buses, and bang average ones at that.

Iconic is an over used word these days but if you were going to use one single bus to define the years 2005 to 2015 you would probably pick an Enviro 400. Might not have changed the course of bus design but remained in production for 10 years and brought in those distinctive curved side windows & built in branch deflectors. Also operated in pretty much every major urban area.
The MMC version is generally blander, a bit like comparing a mk2 Ford Focus to the original.

ChrisPJ said:

Iconic is an over used word these days but if you were going to use one single bus to define the years 2005 to 2015 you would probably pick an Enviro 400. Might not have changed the course of bus design but remained in production for 10 years and brought in those distinctive curved side windows & built in branch deflectors. Also operated in pretty much every major urban area.
The MMC version is generally blander, a bit like comparing a mk2 Ford Focus to the original.

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If you pick an arbitrary period....Pick 1997-2006 and it’s the ALX400. Arguably more important as a design as it was an early low floor.

I might wonder how old the poster is and perhaps it is iconic to them as it has occupied a significant part of their life?

Iconic is a strong word as others have said but the Enviro 400 will be assured a place as a classic bus in History. Born out of the ashes of Transbus who were just coming out of administration, it is amazing ADL got it right and that it sold well. Enviro 400s have also represented some memorable occasions, not least Stage coach 19000 being the first one and the links to 7/7 and also the bus that ironically carried Boris to the handover ceremony from China to London for the 2012 games. Although some of the early buses showed they were developed on a shoestring, ADL gradually improved them and it testament that all major groups bought them despite some potential conflict that they shared an owner with a competitor.

ChrisPJ said:

built in branch deflectors

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They weren't that exciting, the Optare Spectra had them before they appeared on the E400.

Iconic is a strong word. I'm not sure that many buses are iconic. The Routemaster. Maybe the Bristol Lodekka.

After that, I'm struggling. The ECW bodies with the curved roof, but on what chassis? Atlantean or VR? The MCW Atlantean is jaw-droppingly hideous.

I wouldn't call the E400 iconic, but I feel that they do usually provide a better journey than the MMC that followed.

If any bus is iconic it would be the best selling city bus of all time, yet it hasn't been mentioned in the thread yet.

radamfi said:

If any bus is iconic it would be the best selling city bus of all time, yet it hasn't been mentioned in the thread yet.

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Because it ain’t British????

TheGrandWazoo said:

Because it ain’t British????

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Does it have to be?

175mph said:

Would you consider the pre-MMC Enviro E200s, E300s and E400s to be iconic within the bus industry? I would, although personally, I prefer the newer MMC versions as they feel to me more comfortable to travel on.

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The original Enviro 400 was basically an ALX400 with a new front and rear end put on it for the most part, with a few other changes, the way the back and front fix to the main body of the bus inside make that obvious.

The first generation (2005-2009) were of poor build quality, very rattly and nowhere near as good a product as the Gemini series from Wright. However it is fair to say that the second generation what were built from 2009 onwards were better vehicles than the first version and the MMC is better still in my mind.

TheGrandWazoo said:

Why iconic?

Is it technologically advanced?
Aesthetically stunning?
A step change in design?

None of the above. A Routemaster, a Lodekka, a Leyland National, a Leyland Atlantean were iconic. Even the Dennis Dart - it changed an industry.

Enviros are just buses, and bang average ones at that.

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The Dennis Dart is a chassis, on which a lot of Enviro200s were built.

TRAX said:

The Dennis Dart is a chassis, on which a lot of Enviro200s were built.

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Often said - not really true. Like the Optare Spectra being an MCW Metrobus

radamfi said:

If any bus is iconic it would be the best selling city bus of all time, yet it hasn't been mentioned in the thread yet.

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Anywhere you go in Europe, you'll ride on a Merc O405, it's true. Except here. So it's iconic, just not in the UK.

Not that I can get excited about an Optare Prisma.

F Great Eastern said:

the MMC is better still in my mind

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Still not as good as the first gen Gemini, though, which really was a very different bus to everything else when it came out. It knocked spots off everything else on the market at the time. Big, light, airy and ergonomic at a time everyone else- with the possible exception of the Plaxton President- were bringing out boxes on wheels.

radamfi said:

If any bus is iconic it would be the best selling city bus of all time, yet it hasn't been mentioned in the thread yet.

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The Citaro hasn't been exactly a massive seller in the UK though, despite over 50,000 being sold worldwide. .

For a bus industry as a whole - not at all. Just one of few double decker shoeboxes available at a time in the UK sharing the same specs and principle to be cheap and sturdy. UK market seen many better designs than rattly Enviro with an engine taken from a hand blender.

Arguably the ALX400 and Plaxton Pointer were more revolutionary and "iconic". But i agree with others in that the term is poorly used and doesn't have much real meaning.

The Dart SLF was the first mainstream low entry bus in the UK that was commercially successful. There were many others before it, however they failed to gain much orders. Whereas i feel the Dart (as much as i hate them with a passion) really changed things, it was also the first major step towards lightweight bodies with smaller engines.

Perhaps an unpopular opinion, but i actually think the E400MMC was a bigger game changer and a much better vehicle than the E400. That said i've never been a fan of early E400s. The more recent E400MMCs (From around 68 plate) are much better than the earlier ones.

Wright's "Millennium" range was probably the biggest game changer and most ahead of it's time so far in the 21st century. They offered almost endless body configurations and a range of chassis options, the body design has aged very well and doesn't look like something that was designed/conceived in 1998, especially not when you put an example next to other vehicles of the era. Perhaps a bit bias but the Renown to me was also a good step up. Many early low floors had poor proportions and interior layouts, but the Renown sat well and has a very clean floor layout with only 1 step, it's durability (mostly due to the B10BLE chassis) is undeniable.

Finally we come to the 709D and it's "non-biological successor" the Solo. Everyone has ridden a 709D or Solo at some point, as much as they rattled and shook the Merc engines were bomb proof and practically every bus operator had them at some point.

In the context of the original post the term "iconic" presumably means representative of a particular period of time. Utility buses are iconic as they represent a particular period in our history. I think you could call the RT/RTL/RTW family and the Bedford OB and SB iconic as they are representative of that period of post-war reconstruction when "we never had it so good". Likewise the Routemaster family, as they were representative of "swinging London", although I'm not quite sure what other buses might have impinged on popular consciousness as much as the Routemaster family, so that is perhaps the ultimate "iconic" bus. I'm not really sure you could link the Enviro 400 to any particularly significant period of history. Perhaps a "significant" bus?

The only British buses that can truly be held up as "iconic" are probably the RT and RM, considering their association with London and all things British. Didn't they ship a few Lodekkas abroad, paint them red and use them for tours in various places? Who cares as long as it's not the real thing as long as it's a half-cab double-decker with a rear platform entrance? Actually I'd probably say that the Lodekka in its various forms is probably iconic too, as it represented not-London in fairly large numbers.

I personally don't see the E400 as being iconic, but then I'm stuck in the past and anything beyond 1986 is modern rubbish! Maybe it's too soon for such a modern vehicle to be considered a design classic. The same goes for the Wright's Millennium range mentioned in Jordan's post above. I suppose they were striking designs compared to what went before. The ALX400 to me seems more like a development of the R-type (and brief Royale successor). Slightly modified front end, and designed for low-floor chassis. I liked its "retro" look, but I wouldn't say it was iconic.

A few personal "icons":
- Alexander AL. Build on Atlantean and Fleetline chassis, they were the standard bus for three of the Scottish municipal fleets (Glasgow, Edinburgh, Aberdeen), and fairly short-lived in the fourth (Dundee), as well as a few fleets south of the border (Tyne & Wear and Portsmouth? spring to mind).
- Alexander AY/AYS - the archetypal Scottish single-decker, also found in a few English fleets
- NCME's double-deck bodywork as found on Manchester's fleet on numerous different chassis
- The ECW/Olympian combination. Probably not so much iconic as ubiquitous.

To address a few others mentioned above:
- Dennis Drat. I hated them with a passion, but yes they probably do have their place in history. Lightweight, small rear engine, 40-ish seating capacity. Oh, wait - the Albion Viking did that too, back in its day (I'll see your poxy Allison automatic and raise you a 6-speed crash box!)
- Optare Solo. This shouldn't be mentioned without talking about the MCW/Optare Metrorider that went before. The Metrorider was a purpose-built minibus while everything else was a van conversion - Transits, Mercs and (is it possible for buttocks to have memory?) the Dodgy S56s. The Solo was the logical successor to the Metrorider, and when they replaced the 709Ds on my local route it was a major improvement.
- Optare Spectra. Is it a Metrobus MkX, or isn't it? When I first saw it in Buses magazine in Reading Buses livery I thought it was stunning.

It's all very subjective, and there are so many "icons" that I could come up with. There is one that hasn't had a mention so far: the Volvo B10M. Bus, coach, single-deck, double-deck - it was up for the job.

I'm prepared to run and hide but.... The Neoplan Skyliner and Bova Futura, both practically stayed unchanged for 30 years and sold in decent numbers for the category of vehicles that they were. Both examples served longevity too, Bain's Coaches Of Oldmeldrum for example had an early 80s Skyliner still in use long past it's 30th Birthday.

GusB said:

I personally don't see the E400 as being iconic, but then I'm stuck in the past and anything beyond 1986 is modern rubbish! Maybe it's too soon for such a modern vehicle to be considered a design classic. The same goes for the Wright's Millennium range mentioned in Jordan's post above. I suppose they were striking designs compared to what went before. The ALX400 to me seems more like a development of the R-type (and brief Royale successor). Slightly modified front end, and designed for low-floor chassis. I liked its "retro" look, but I wouldn't say it was iconic..

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To clarify, i hate the use of the term iconic when it comes to buses too, i find it totally meaningless. The buses i listed i was more regarding as changing the game in the last 20 years or being well regarded workhorses. As for the ALX400, you're pretty much spot on. In fact one of the prototypes was literally an RH with ALX400 fibreglass moulds. Plus you had the original ALX500 fitted with the RH front.

GusB said:

- Optare Spectra. Is it a Metrobus MkX, or isn't it? When I first saw it in Buses magazine in Reading Buses livery I thought it was stunning.

It's all very subjective, and there are so many "icons" that I could come up with. There is one that hasn't had a mention so far: the Volvo B10M. Bus, coach, single-deck, double-deck - it was up for the job.

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The Spectra aged quite poorly, the later low floor examples were well past their time and it showed. Of course the B10M is definitely up there, i'd doubt any other sole product since has been able to replicate what it did since. Even being offered in articulated form. I think as far as the coach variants go they were best with the Vanhool T8 bodies.

TheGrandWazoo said:

Often said - not really true. Like the Optare Spectra being an MCW Metrobus

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it is true. Ever heard of the Enviro200 Dart ?

TRAX said:

it is true. Ever heard of the Enviro200 Dart ?

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Yes, it was developed from the Dart but with some major changes and, of course, we had e200 on an MAN chassis! And the e200 was also developed whilst the Dart remained in production. The Dart name was only added after Dart production ceased though it's fair to say it (the e200 Dart) does owe a lot to it's predecessor. In much the same way as an Optare Spectra owes a lot to the MCW Metrobus.

Arctic Troll said:

Anywhere you go in Europe, you'll ride on a Merc O405, it's true.

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Not any more, it has been superseded by the Citaro, but the O405 was also very successful and could also be considered iconic.

K4016td said:

For a bus industry as a whole - not at all. Just one of few double decker shoeboxes available at a time in the UK sharing the same specs and principle to be cheap and sturdy. UK market seen many better designs than rattly Enviro with an engine taken from a hand blender.

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Agree with this 100%.

Iconic is overused and the e400 is as bang average as you get. Think the OP is getting confused with ubiquitous.

The e400 isn’t groundbreaking. It wasn’t even that good as others have said (early ones enjoying poor build quality). There’s no great style - it’s just a box with the front slightly chamfered.

radamfi said:

Not any more, it has been superseded by the Citaro, but the O405 was also very successful and could also be considered iconic.

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Probably not in a U.K. sense but across Europe, the Citaro is the archetypal city bus. Iconic is probably the word.

Citaro is one of those vehicles that on the continent is often ordered hundreds at a time, few orders for over a 1,000 per order gone in recently as well!

If it's too expensive for some operators, then they offer the Conecto in Eastern Europe, Turkey and Central Asia which is basically a cheap version of the Citaro.

Then you have the extremely long CapaCity, a longer version of the articulated Citaro that goes up to 21m.

One of the definitions of icon is a 'representative image'. On that basic, an iconic vehicle is one that has been represented in artwork, maybe for advertising or suchlike. So the Routemaster is clearly there. I would argue that the original Wright double decker (sorry, I don't follow bus models much) counts as well, as it was used on a lot of LT publicity. A chassis/platform such as the B10M cannot really be classed as iconic since an image of a chassis would not represent the genre.
On that basis, how about Duple Dominant or Plaxton Paramount as iconic British coaches?

At least 50% of passengers ride the pre MMC Enviros daily.
Despite this I believe that it is not an icon. I believe that the product range was in the right market at the right time and that's why it is a Success but not an icon.

cnjb8 said:

At least 50% of passengers ride the pre MMC Enviros daily.

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What do you base that on, out of curiousity.

They're actually very uncommon in Suffolk, Ipswich doesn't have any, despite being a county town, two decent sized bus operators and an array of independents.

I hadn't really considered coach designs in the context of this discussion, however I'd agree that there are quite a few that fit the bill.

Jordan Adam said:

I'm prepared to run and hide but.... The Neoplan Skyliner and Bova Futura, both practically stayed unchanged for 30 years and sold in decent numbers for the category of vehicles that they were. Both examples served longevity too, Bain's Coaches Of Oldmeldrum for example had an early 80s Skyliner still in use long past it's 30th Birthday.

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These were definitely stand-out designs in their day. I recall when the then fledgling Stagecoach used Skyliners on their original express services, and they were certainly eye-catching, as were the Jetliners that they also used.

Likewise, the Futura's styling (against a backdrop of Plaxton Paramounts, Duple 320/340 and Van Hool Alizees) were quite striking in their appearance. I'd add Setra to this list - I always thought they were a bit special. Might I also add our home-grown Duple 425 to the list, or is that one a bit too marmite?

pdq said:

One of the definitions of icon is a 'representative image'. On that basic, an iconic vehicle is one that has been represented in artwork, maybe for advertising or suchlike. So the Routemaster is clearly there. I would argue that the original Wright double decker (sorry, I don't follow bus models much) counts as well, as it was used on a lot of LT publicity. A chassis/platform such as the B10M cannot really be classed as iconic since an image of a chassis would not represent the genre.
On that basis, how about Duple Dominant or Plaxton Paramount as iconic British coaches?

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I would agree with this. The Duple Dominant and Plaxton Supreme were widespread, whether they were with small independent operators, NBC/SBG companies or the larger tour operators like Wallace Arnold and Shearings. When both types were introduced they were definitely a step forward from their predecessor designs, although somehow I don't view their successor design in the same light. That is just my personal view, and others may disagree.