• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Passenger fatally injured on a train between Bath and Bristol, Saturday 01/12/18

Status
Not open for further replies.

Need2

Member
Joined
15 Jun 2016
Messages
595
Thank you for your thought out and constructive contribution to the debate.

If you are saying my statement "If the train hadn't had an opening window then this incident couldn't have happened" is "utter poppy cock" then please explain how this accident could have happened if the train hadn't had opening windows.

Simple. The member of the public should heed the warning sign and take responsibility for their actions.
If a memeber of the public walked off the end of a platform, ignoring all signs/warnings, and then got hit by a train, who's fault is that. The person or the TOC/NR?
Obviously if NR had cut back this particular branch, or the person hadn't leaned out of the window, the accident wouldn't have happened either. But however good the inspection and trimming there's always a risk of a branch being close to a train, there are always going to be people that will lean out of an opening window regardless of how many warning signs are provided (has anyone on this forum not done so?).

If this accident had happened several decades ago when droplights were widespread, and been investigated to today's standards, then I would agree it would be reasonable for the network operator to trim back the foliage so it wouldn't be close to the windows. However in that era it would probably have been regarded as "just one of those things" and ignored, unlike a "real" train accident which would have been thoroughly investigated. But as droplights are now nearly extinct it doesn't seem reasonable to expect NR to spend a lot of taxpayers' money on extra foliage management, increasing the risk to their staff working trackside with powered cutting tools, just to prevent an unlikely repeat of this accident which as you point out is partly due to misbehavior by the victim.

So the unfortunate 'victim' of this lack of care is totally exonerated of all blame in this instance?
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Need2

Member
Joined
15 Jun 2016
Messages
595
Correct. Your first sentence is being overlooked ( perhaps willfully) by many posters.
It is not being overlooked willfully.
It is a ridiculous state of affairs that a person/company can be held to blame for the action of an individual when warned not to do so.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

DarloRich

Veteran Member
Joined
12 Oct 2010
Messages
29,287
Location
Fenny Stratford
It is not being overlooked willfully.
It is a ridiculous state of affairs that a person/company can be held to blame for the action of an individual when warned not to do so.

That is your view. Sadly the law (and by extension regulation), which you admit to having little knowledge of, does not support that view. I do not have the luxury of dealing with what we wish the world looked like. I have to deal with what the world is like. Again, that will colour my responses to threads like this, especially in the face of views which are not based on that reality.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

option

Member
Joined
1 Aug 2017
Messages
636
Thank you. And while management time is squandered on what you describe, the basics of keeping the track clear of obstructions are completely overlooked, or worse, removed from the work plan (as described in the report), presumably to come in within budget, while millions are spent on a Network Measurement Train that presumably comes past here regularly but never measures for obstructions.

The Old Ganger at Taunton, by the way, was not mythical; he was very real.


but the track was clear of obstructions, otherwise the train itself would have hit the object.


You've already been asked this; how much clearance do you want between a train & everything else?
(your answer has to be an actual measurement)
 

Grumpy Git

On Moderation
Joined
13 Oct 2019
Messages
2,137
Location
Liverpool
I think the crux of the matter here (whether or not the unfortunate accident had occurred), is that at a point in time not so long ago and right back from when the railways were invented, that tree branch would not have been allowed to encroach as it did for more than a day (maybe two worst case)?
 
Last edited:

AM9

Veteran Member
Joined
13 May 2014
Messages
14,263
Location
St Albans
I think the crux of the matter here (whether or not the unfortunate accident had occurred), is that at a point in time not so long ago and right back from the railways were invented, that branch would not have been allowed to encroach as it did for more than a day (maybe two)?
A lot can happen in a day (or two) in terms of branches entering the structure gauge for the route. On a wet or windy day, a part of the surrounding vegetation could temporarily be in a position to strike a train exceeding it's loading gauge. That would be a rare chance event, but nobody here has confirmed that it wasn't the case.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,828
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
No in Europe a good amount of trains still have windows that drop half way down and you can lean out. But there again in Europe you are expected to use a bit of common sense.

There are a few differences with these. One is that being higher up you're fully standing leaning out and can pull back in very quickly. Another is that they're too high up for a kid to lean out. Another is that the structure gauge is much larger - I've stuck my head out of many of that type of window over the years and not once has my head come even vaguely close to anything.
 

option

Member
Joined
1 Aug 2017
Messages
636
I think the crux of the matter here (whether or not the unfortunate accident had occurred), is that at a point in time not so long ago and right back from when the railways were invented, that tree branch would not have been allowed to encroach as it did for more than a day (maybe two worst case)?

There were a lot lot more staff (who were also a lot lot cheaper) & they had more time to do jobs (a lot lot less Sunday services as an example). There would have also been no complaining from lineside neighbours about what the railway companies did to trees etc that were on their land. The stuff would have been cleared & burnt on site, can't do that nowadays.
 

DarloRich

Veteran Member
Joined
12 Oct 2010
Messages
29,287
Location
Fenny Stratford
So the unfortunate 'victim' of this lack of care is totally exonerated of all blame in this instance?

You are conflating two very separate issues. The first is the cause of the horrible accident. The second is the level of contributory negligence.
 

Llanigraham

On Moderation
Joined
23 Mar 2013
Messages
6,103
Location
Powys
A lot can happen in a day (or two) in terms of branches entering the structure gauge for the route. On a wet or windy day, a part of the surrounding vegetation could temporarily be in a position to strike a train exceeding it's loading gauge. That would be a rare chance event, but nobody here has confirmed that it wasn't the case.

Just the weight of rain on the leaves and branches of a tree can make lean over further.
 

yorksrob

Veteran Member
Joined
6 Aug 2009
Messages
38,990
Location
Yorks
but the track was clear of obstructions, otherwise the train itself would have hit the object.


You've already been asked this; how much clearance do you want between a train & everything else?
(your answer has to be an actual measurement)

Surely it should be the same as that required between the track and built structures ?
 

Taunton

Established Member
Joined
1 Aug 2013
Messages
10,079
A lot can happen in a day (or two) in terms of branches entering the structure gauge for the route... but nobody here has confirmed that it wasn't the case.
The report states quite straightforwardly it wasn't windy and the tree had been in that fallen position for 2 years.

I think a further disappointment beyond the actual tragic incident is the criticism here from a significant number of informed posters about its conclusions. Time was when accident report inspectors were universally respected for getting to the actual crux of the matter in their wholly factual reports. There are a lot of us who feel that has not happened here.

You've already been asked this; how much clearance do you want between a train & everything else?
(your answer has to be an actual measurement)
Network Rail define this much better than any of us. If it's less than a certain amount the familiar red/white quartered plate is installed. Less again and window bars are required for any stock - there was a longstanding one in Cumbria.
 
Last edited:

edwin_m

Veteran Member
Joined
21 Apr 2013
Messages
24,905
Location
Nottingham
Surely it should be the same as that required between the track and built structures ?
Clearances between trains and structures can be very small, subject to calculations that they won't actually touch, considering things like the worst case swaying of the train and the tendency of the track to move around over time. However the traditional recommended clearances do include an extra area at window level for lines where trains have droplights.
 

AM9

Veteran Member
Joined
13 May 2014
Messages
14,263
Location
St Albans
But somebody leaning out of the window puts the train out of gauge. There is no other circumstance where that is allowed randomly.
Who's failure would it be if a child or a person of limited mental capability was killed by such an action?
 
Last edited:

AM9

Veteran Member
Joined
13 May 2014
Messages
14,263
Location
St Albans
The report states quite straightforwardly it wasn't windy and the tree had been in that fallen position for 2 years.
So with hundreds of alert GWR drivers passing this point, most of them in daylight, nobody in the TOC's organisation noticed it?

... I think a further disappointment beyond the actual tragic incident is the criticism here from a significant number of informed posters about its conclusions. Time was when accident report inspectors were universally respected for getting to the actual crux of the matter in their wholly factual reports. There are a lot of us who feel that has not happened here. ...
It look like you are including yourself as one of the 'informed' posters, but there are other comments by informed posters disagreeing with you. The fact is the very little health and safety matters now are now swept under the carpet of 'grandfather rights' and quite right too. For too many years large organisations spouted the 'well it's always been this way' defence. The railway might be one of the oldest transport systems in the UK but it is respected as one of the safest thanks to the process of fully investigating accidents. The role of the inspectors is not to blame but to identify what went wrong and what needs to be changed to prevent a recurrence. In this instance, the recognition of the totally inadequate safety of droplights on main line trains as the primary cause of this event is evidence that it was an accident waiting to happen. That was the same basic reason for the last similar incident so who knows, there might be another one soon. It is an endightment of the railway's commercial imperative compromising safety that their assertion of the impending withdrawl of these 40 year-old trains 'soon'* allows the TOC to do anything about the root cause.
* 'soon' can be a long time on the UK railway.
 

yorksrob

Veteran Member
Joined
6 Aug 2009
Messages
38,990
Location
Yorks
The report states quite straightforwardly it wasn't windy and the tree had been in that fallen position for 2 years.

I think a further disappointment beyond the actual tragic incident is the criticism here from a significant number of informed posters about its conclusions. Time was when accident report inspectors were universally respected for getting to the actual crux of the matter in their wholly factual reports. There are a lot of us who feel that has not happened here.


Network Rail define this much better than any of us. If it's less than a certain amount the familiar red/white quartered plate is installed. Less again and window bars are required for any stock - there was a longstanding one in Cumbria.

On the contrary, I think it's welcome that the report has calmly and soberly assessed the causes and not lept to nonsensical hysterical suggestions like sealing up all droplights etc.
 

SteveM70

Established Member
Joined
11 Jul 2018
Messages
3,871
So with hundreds of alert GWR drivers passing this point, most of them in daylight, nobody in the TOC's organisation noticed it?

That’s what I was wondering, and to extend that thought process a little further...

1 - over an extended period of time did no driver or other railway employee pass the site and notice the issue?

2 - if any did notice, did they consider it as a potential risk or just think “hmmm that tree’s a bit close to the track”

3 - if they think it was a risk at the time of noticing did they report it or forget / not bother

4 - if it was reported (perhaps verbally) was it not formally recorded
 

Tetchytyke

Veteran Member
Joined
12 Sep 2013
Messages
13,305
Location
Isle of Man
It is a ridiculous state of affairs that a person/company can be held to blame for the action of an individual when warned not to do so.

You, along with many others, seem to misunderstand the RAIB. The RAIB do not apportion blame.

They understand why something happened and see what we can do differently to make sure it doesn't happen again.

In this case, they've found that the passenger might not have leaned out of the window had the warning signs been suitably clear. So they have suggested changing the warning signs to make them stand out more. It's hardly controversial, surely?
 

DarloRich

Veteran Member
Joined
12 Oct 2010
Messages
29,287
Location
Fenny Stratford
I think a further disappointment beyond the actual tragic incident is the criticism here from a significant number of informed posters about its conclusions. Time was when accident report inspectors were universally respected for getting to the actual crux of the matter in their wholly factual reports. There are a lot of us who feel that has not happened here.

You are the one seeking to denigrate the work of the inspectors because they have not reached the conclusion that you think they should have done. You ask earlier why they seek to absolve NR. I wonder why you are so keen to absolve the TOC.

It look like you are including yourself as one of the 'informed' posters, but there are other comments by informed posters disagreeing with you. The fact is the very little health and safety matters now are now swept under the carpet of 'grandfather rights' and quite right too. For too many years large organisations spouted the 'well it's always been this way' defence. The railway might be one of the oldest transport systems in the UK but it is respected as one of the safest thanks to the process of fully investigating accidents. The role of the inspectors is not to blame but to identify what went wrong and what needs to be changed to prevent a recurrence. In this instance, the recognition of the totally inadequate safety of droplights on main line trains as the primary cause of this event is evidence that it was an accident waiting to happen. That was the same basic reason for the last similar incident so who knows, there might be another one soon. It is an endightment of the railway's commercial imperative compromising safety that their assertion of the impending withdrawl of these 40 year-old trains 'soon'* allows the TOC to do anything about the root cause.
* 'soon' can be a long time on the UK railway.

You, along with many others, seem to misunderstand the RAIB. The RAIB do not apportion blame.

They understand why something happened and see what we can do differently to make sure it doesn't happen again.

In this case, they've found that the passenger might not have leaned out of the window had the warning signs been suitably clear. So they have suggested changing the warning signs to make them stand out more. It's hardly controversial, surely?

Correct x 2.
 

Chris M

Member
Joined
4 Feb 2012
Messages
1,057
Location
London E14
One thing that has apparently been missed by commenters here is paragraphs 106 and 107:

Other reported actions
106 Network Rail has started a programme of briefings and practical training for staff
at the Queen Anne Road depot in Bristol. This is to improve their knowledge and
understanding of the current vegetation management standard and includes
practical sessions on vegetation inspection and TEF completion.


Actions reported that address factors which otherwise would have resulted in a RAIB recommendation

107 Network Rail has divided the lines that the Queen Anne Road depot has responsibility for into three portions. Each year one of the portions will be inspected on foot which will ensure that the whole mileage is inspected every 36 months and the workload is more manageable. It is intended that this will enable all inspections to be undertaken during the growing season.
In other words there is no need to make a recommendation to Network Rail to improve their vegetation management because they have already taken steps to do just that
 

Bikeman78

Established Member
Joined
26 Apr 2018
Messages
4,554
What a disappointing report from RAIB, once again in the Recommendations absolving Network Rail of any responsibility (so probably written by the same inspector who did the Athelney crossing accident).

Network Rail allow the lineside vegetation to grow, apparently for years, to the extent that it impinges on the structure gauge (the report states it had been foul of trains for at least 2 years), and yet the Recommendations are placed on the train operator, who is NOT responsible for clearing the structure gauge, and even on heritage railways, actually quite reasonably but they of course still have an integrated management where the PW keep the structure gauge clear, and know their more enthusiastic passengers do lean out.

On some routes there is a train shaped tunnel through the trees and bushes. This week a 150 hit a big tree on the way to Fishguard. It caused a fair bit of damage. The driver was lucky.
 

30907

Veteran Member
Joined
30 Sep 2012
Messages
18,030
Location
Airedale
No in Europe a good amount of trains still have windows that drop half way down and you can lean out. But there again in Europe you are expected to use a bit of common sense.
That is true in Central Europe, but vanishingly rare in Western Europe, and I doubt if any has been built in the last 40 years (there's the "photo windows" on some new Rhaetische Bahn trains in Switzerland, but I doubt they exceed 50mph.)
 

Taunton

Established Member
Joined
1 Aug 2013
Messages
10,079
In other words there is no need to make a recommendation to Network Rail to improve their vegetation management because they have already taken steps to do just that
I wonder, have they :

a) Defined a structure gauge, plus a tolerance.
b) Determined to cut back to that.
c) Identified growing patterns of the different vegetation.
d) Determined to cut that back further as well, to the extent that it is not likely to impinge the gauge by the next scheduled cutting.
 

AM9

Veteran Member
Joined
13 May 2014
Messages
14,263
Location
St Albans
Your posts read to me like you have an axe to grind about Network Rail. Clearly the experts at the RAIB aren't compromised by similar feelings when determining primary and secondary causes of events that they are empowered to investigate.
 

bramling

Veteran Member
Joined
5 Mar 2012
Messages
17,765
Location
Hertfordshire / Teesdale
On some routes there is a train shaped tunnel through the trees and bushes. This week a 150 hit a big tree on the way to Fishguard. It caused a fair bit of damage. The driver was lucky.

Certainly when I travelled along the Fishguard branch a couple of months ago, there was vegetation rubbing along the side of the train pretty much constantly along most of the length of the branch, and to the extent that twigs and leaves were entering the carriage through open windows (class 150). As an aside, it would be quite easy for someone to sustain injury by putting their arm out of a class 150 hopper window, which would be fairly easy to do if so inclined.

I don't think things will ever get to the point where vegetation never encroaches, as there will always be situations where branches hang lower than they might normally do, for example after heavy rain.

I tend to agree that people should simply exercise care. A droplight window isn't, IMO, inherently dangerous. The suggestion of prominent labeling seems reasonable and proportionate to me, although of course it does introduce the issue of people that can't read.
 

Wilts Wanderer

Established Member
Joined
21 Nov 2016
Messages
2,488
One item that rather surprised me was the suggestion that a red warning sticker would have been more effective than the yellow sticker applied above the droplight window inside the Mk3 coach. Unless I’m mistaken, the inside of the door on a GWR was pink (except the small number of GWR-liveried vehicles which had silver/grey doors.)

A yellow sticker stands out far more on a pink background than a red sticker would.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,828
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
One item that rather surprised me was the suggestion that a red warning sticker would have been more effective than the yellow sticker applied above the droplight window inside the Mk3 coach. Unless I’m mistaken, the inside of the door on a GWR was pink (except the small number of GWR-liveried vehicles which had silver/grey doors.)

A yellow sticker stands out far more on a pink background than a red sticker would.

Aside from the colour the new stickers are much larger, more prominent and in two places on the door.
 

Taunton

Established Member
Joined
1 Aug 2013
Messages
10,079
Your posts read to me like you have an axe to grind about Network Rail. Clearly the experts at the RAIB aren't compromised by similar feelings when determining primary and secondary causes of events that they are empowered to investigate.
Well it just seemed that NR could do with a bit of help with procedures to manage their trackside gardening. It may also help with the way autumn leaves have allowed to become far more of a nuisance in recent times.
 

AM9

Veteran Member
Joined
13 May 2014
Messages
14,263
Location
St Albans
Well it just seemed that NR could do with a bit of help with procedures to manage their trackside gardening. It may also help with the way autumn leaves have allowed to become far more of a nuisance in recent times.
So the RAIB should skew it's investigation findings to apply pressure on NR so that they have to change their procedures which might also help with the annual leaf-fall problems. If they were to do anything like you suggest in an investigation about a fatal injury that was primarily caused by a droplight window that it was possible to lean out of, that would surely destroy the RAIB's credibility faster than the FAA did theirs in the 737 MAX debacle.
Well, I'm impressed with your honesty for admitting that, but alarmed that somebody could hold such a flippant view about such a serious matter.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top