Bikes on trains again (and other inconsiderate annoyances)

ashkeba · 18 Oct 2019

Bletchleyite said:
So you are calling me a liar. In that case, I would suggest you stop engaging with me as how is that a basis for a sensible discussion?

No, I exactly said that I do not think you are a liar. If you read the opposite then it is you not basing a sensible discussion. I think you have a high threshill for what is not obstructing. Higher than the guard.

Bletchleyite said:
It was seriously obstructing enough for the guard to have to jump over it (he sort of vaulted using the seat either side).

The bike was placed between the 3+2 seats in contact with the side of the seat cushions, if you see what I mean. He used some force to get it in there, which must have been far more effort than walking about 50m to the correct place.

Sorry but it looks more elaborate each post! Next time, will the guard have used the seat top handles like a gymnastic horse to pass it and both front and back wheels of the bike have been inserted down the sides of the seat cushions?

FWIW, I'm intrigued as to how you think a bike placed in the aisle of a 3+2 seated coach would not be causing an obstruction. Are you only 1" thick so you could squeeze past it?

I do not remember how wide the aisle is on class 350 but I think me and my stick have past a bike in the aisle of class 317 at Cambridge. As long as the handles are not in line with seat backs, you can be much more than 1" thick, but I am fairly small and whether you yourself could pass, I do not know because I do not know how thick you are. The aisle is not where I would choose to put a bike but I have been told to do so once.

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DynamicSpirit · 18 Oct 2019

Bletchleyite said:
However, I do find (and am disappointed to find) generally that many staff are reluctant to enforce matters for passenger comfort - most notably the playing out loud of electronic devices. Tolerance of such misbehaviour doesn't just cause issues for other passengers, but promotes a feeling that it's somehow OK and so it continues. I could understand the guard feeling threatened (particularly as he said he thought it was my bike and I am not a small person) but a PA being made would at least have made it clear it wasn't OK, even if it hadn't been moved at that point.

I totally agree. In my experience, low level anti-social behaviour by some passengers - such as electronic devices, feet on seats, and of course the (rarer) example you've given of inconsiderate cycle placement - routinely make journeys less pleasant than - or even feel less safe than - they should be. And of course, if it goes unchallenged, it eventually leads to worse and worse behaviour. I really think it's time TOCs started training and supporting staff to crack down on this kind of stuff more. Maybe even experiment with putting two guards on some trains, so that they can work in pairs to deal with on-train anti-social behaviour.

ashkeba · 18 Oct 2019

Comstock said:
I would be reasonably happy with the idea of paying child fare for a bike, but as a season ticket holder who spends thousands of pounds a year on monthly tickets plus the odd different trip at the weekend, I would at least expect a 50% discount on that for us season ticketers.

I pay fare for a bike in some countries. I think it is less than some child fares and more than others - on NMBS and NS, I think the bike fare was a day ticket and I think NS has a low child fare too but it is some time since I paid for a child! This is OK because NS mostly has big station cycle parking while NMBS mostly have big open carriages for bikes. The problem for National Rail is a bike fare would probably need more parking and consistent provision similar to @The Ham's suggestions for it not to become a political fight.

ashkeba · 18 Oct 2019

DelW said:
Just on a 450 into Waterloo, [...] The other three are very large and muddy off-road bikes which I personally don't think should be allowed on peak hour trains.

They already are not, are they? I think there is a peak-time ban inside London Waterloo, Reading, Hook, Alton, Guildford and Dorking, except for reserved ones on Salisbury/Exeter/Bristol services.

muz379 · 18 Oct 2019

Bletchleyite said:
It was a 350/2. There was a large bike space in one of the middle coaches which I pointed out to both of them. There was a guard who jumped over it going back to the cab and did nothing about it.

You couldn't make it up.

Certainly something that the guard should be having polite words about , especially if the bike space is empty . In this sitaution I will just say to people "at the next stop would you mind just jumping off and walking down to the space with your bike , I will wait for you" .

I note later in the thread after the conversation with the guard you allude to the fact that they had already had a tough shift , and this does happen . But I cannot imagine a situation in which I would not have a friendly word with someone blocking aisles or doorways with a bike , especially if the bike space is empty it is a safety issue , if there needs to be an evacuation in a rush aiseles and doorways being blocked is far from idea . If they then become confrontational then If I have already had enough confrontation for one day I might back down and enlist the help of station staff at the next station .

Bletchleyite said:
However, I do find (and am disappointed to find) generally that many staff are reluctant to enforce matters for passenger comfort - most notably the playing out loud of electronic devices. Tolerance of such misbehaviour doesn't just cause issues for other passengers, but promotes a feeling that it's somehow OK and so it continues. I could understand the guard feeling threatened (particularly as he said he thought it was my bike and I am not a small person) but a PA being made would at least have made it clear it wasn't OK, even if it hadn't been moved at that point.

I however do not agree with you on this ,noise from other passengers is part and parcel of travelling by public transport . Unless its excessive or vulgar language is being used and there are families with children travelling in the carriage I dont see the role of on board staff as being noise monitors .

I mean the by-laws say nobody is allowed to sing on trains without written permission from the operator . Should guards be stopping the job for the BTP assistance every time there's a carriage full of football fans doing precisely that ?

Staff are not there to uphold rules and standards that you make up , and imo the best way is to apply by-laws with a degree of common sense .

Bletchleyite · 18 Oct 2019

ashkeba said:
No, I exactly said that I do not think you are a liar. If you read the opposite then it is you not basing a sensible discussion. I think you have a high threshill for what is not obstructing. Higher than the guard.

Sorry but it looks more elaborate each post! Next time, will the guard have used the seat top handles like a gymnastic horse to pass it and both front and back wheels of the bike have been inserted down the sides of the seat cushions?

Believe it or not that is actually an accurate description of the situation. So actually, in a humorous way, yes you are calling me a liar.

It's such a ridiculous place to put a bike that I can see why you're finding it hard to believe - but that's how it was!

I spoke to the guard when I got off, by the way, and he agreed it was in a stupid place but he'd just had enough that day with trouble and couldn't be bothered, basically.

The other bike was in a slightly less silly place in the vestibule, but was still wholly blocking the side where all platforms between Euston and Northampton are.

I do not remember how wide the aisle is on class 350 but I think me and my stick have past a bike in the aisle of class 317 at Cambridge. As long as the handles are not in line with seat backs, you can be much more than 1" thick, but I am fairly small and whether you yourself could pass, I do not know because I do not know how thick you are. The aisle is not where I would choose to put a bike but I have been told to do so once.

The aisle of a 3+2-seated 350/2 is about 12" wide, maybe very slightly wider. The only train I've come across with a narrower aisle is a Class 175.

A bicycle placed in the aisle of a train with a wide aisle (for example, seeing as I used one of those too, the 2+2 area of a Chiltern Class 165, or a Class 700) would indeed not be causing an obstruction.

It was not possible to pass the bike with one's feet on the train floor.

pompeyfan · 18 Oct 2019

Bletchleyite said:
Believe it or not that is actually an accurate description of the situation. So actually, in a humorous way, yes you are calling me a liar.

It's such a ridiculous place to put a bike that I can see why you're finding it hard to believe - but that's how it was!

I spoke to the guard when I got off, by the way, and he agreed it was in a stupid place but he'd just had enough that day with trouble and couldn't be bothered, basically.

The other bike was in a slightly less silly place in the vestibule, but was still wholly blocking the side where all platforms between Euston and Northampton are.

The aisle of a 3+2-seated 350/2 is about 12" wide, maybe very slightly wider. The only train I've come across with a narrower aisle is a Class 175.

A bicycle placed in the aisle of a train with a wide aisle (for example, seeing as I used one of those too, the 2+2 area of a Chiltern Class 165, or a Class 700) would indeed not be causing an obstruction.

It was not possible to pass the bike with one's feet on the train floor.

but if you don’t take both your feet off the floor you can’t walk

ashkeba · 18 Oct 2019

Sadly, training for new LNR guards is not going well:

Bletchleyite · 18 Oct 2019

pompeyfan said:
but if you don’t take both your feet off the floor you can’t walk

Oh, behave

Bletchleyite · 18 Oct 2019

muz379 said:
I however do not agree with you on this ,noise from other passengers is part and parcel of travelling by public transport

Noise from people having conversations is. Electronic devices can be played with headphones and should ALWAYS be played with headphones in a public place.

That said, these people are just inconsiderate. I asked a family to leave the Quiet Coach of an almost empty VTWC service for playing a film out loud (to not exactly quiet applause from others in the coach who were also annoyed by it). They did, in the end, too, fortunately, but this was utterly beyond the pail.

muz379 · 18 Oct 2019

Bletchleyite said:
Noise from people having conversations is. Electronic devices can be played with headphones and should ALWAYS be played with headphones in a public place.

That said, these people are just inconsiderate. I asked a family to leave the Quiet Coach of an almost empty VTWC service for playing a film out loud (to not exactly quiet applause from others in the coach who were also annoyed by it). They did, in the end, too, fortunately, but this was utterly beyond the pail.

Well I still beg to differ , but whatever , it seems your views are firmly entrenched which is fair enough and I frankly am not that fussed either way , I will say one thing though , If I was so clearly bothered by other peoples noise there is not a cat in hells chance I would use public transport .

ashkeba · 18 Oct 2019

muz379 said:
Well I still beg to differ , but whatever , it seems your views are firmly entrenched which is fair enough and I frankly am not that fussed either way , I will say one thing though , If I was so clearly bothered by other peoples noise there is not a cat in hells chance I would use public transport .

Private transport vehicles are very noisy too. Hermitage is the only option!

Bletchleyite · 18 Oct 2019

ashkeba said:
Private transport vehicles are very noisy too. Hermitage is the only option!

Engine noise, aircon noise etc doesn't cause stress in the way hearing but being unable to watch a film does.

ashkeba · 18 Oct 2019

Bletchleyite said:
Engine noise, aircon noise etc doesn't cause stress in the way hearing but being unable to watch a film does.

Indeed. It is far worse and sometimes people wanting to avoid that engine noise and also their pollution put their vehicles on trains

I've yet to sit in a train with a laptop idiot that my earplugs do not blot out.

Bletchleyite · 18 Oct 2019

ashkeba said:
I've yet to sit in a train with a laptop idiot that my earplugs do not blot out.

Whereas I've frequently been on a train listening to music or a podcast through headphones at a sensible, not audible to others volume, and have been able to hear others' music over the top from speakers and even from excessively loud headphones.

Before taking an action, think of its possible adverse impact on others first. That's all I ask.

DynamicSpirit · 18 Oct 2019

Bletchleyite said:
Noise from people having conversations is. Electronic devices can be played with headphones and should ALWAYS be played with headphones in a public place.

I find there is something about the tinny quality of noise from headphones, or from phones heard some distance away, that seems to make the noise more annoying than if it was just somebody speaking directly.

But also, stuff being played on headphones can carry on for ages - whereas in the majority of cases, people talking tends to be more intermittent.

Sweetjesus · 19 Oct 2019

I regularly bring my bicycle on trains and I often park it in the doorway area. I will move if asked.

The problem is, half of trains that comes, doesn't have a dedicated bicycle storage area. The other half that comes, does have it but it's often not labelled.

So either I go in and park my bicycle in the doorway area (move it to other doors before the train pulls into a station if necessary) or risk missing that train if I keep moving through the platform frantically looking for bike storage that may, may not be on the train.

Speed43125 · 19 Oct 2019

Bletchleyite said:
Fair point. We do need that back, as it reduces the guard to someone cowering in the back cab from what was a once proud and authoritative role.

They can start wearing proper hats again for a start. They tend to have either just a id thingy around their neck or a hi vis jacket in an odd colour. Certainly does not command respect,

DynamicSpirit · 19 Oct 2019

Sweetjesus said:
I regularly bring my bicycle on trains and I often park it in the doorway area. I will move if asked.

The problem is, half of trains that comes, doesn't have a dedicated bicycle storage area. The other half that comes, does have it but it's often not labelled.

So either I go in and park my bicycle in the doorway area (move it to other doors before the train pulls into a station if necessary) or risk missing that train if I keep moving through the platform frantically looking for bike storage that may, may not be on the train.

I think you are correct - those are issues. In fact, only a couple of months ago, I ended up with my bike in completely the wrong spot on a Thameslink train, because I didn't know where the dedicated cycle space was and couldn't risk wandering the length of the platform looking for it when the train could depart any second. Having to put your bicycle in the doorway area is particularly awkward at stations like London Bridge where you basically don't know until the train actually pulls into the platform which side the doors are going to open and therefore whether you'll need to move your bike.

But none of that excuses the kind of behaviour that @Bletchleyite described at the start of this thread. No matter how frustrating the experience of travelling with a cycle, you can still be considerate to other passengers!

tpjm · 20 Oct 2019

The difficult situation is that rail and bicycles don't mix in a particularly cohesive way, similarly for ludicrously large suitcases and prams/buggies. This is a systemic problem which can only be attributed to the dire need for capacity (which our government judge on seats) and selfish attitudes of some travellers.

Although not in a 'front-line' role, I do interact with customers several times a week on our platforms and trains. It's incredibly frustrating that only about 50% of the people pertaining to the above groups are fully cooperative and I can wholeheartedly understand why some of our Guards are fatigued by trying to argue with the 10% who are purposely obnoxious, confrontational and think only for themselves.

Since introducing new trains which have the wheelchair spaces in First Class (and no Standard provision) I've had some interesting discussions with customers who felt that they, plus their four children and two buggies were entitled to the free upgrade because "where else do we expect them to put the buggies" and "they always put their stuff in the wheelchair space". It's mind-blowing how people think that their train ticket buys them a one-way excuse to being closed-minded. Even the knowledge that a wheelchair user was booked to join the train at the next calling point wasn't enough for one of these groups. The mind boggles.

I agree with @Bletchleyite that the on-board and station team should be managing these types of customer failure and assisting (granted, in a polite way) with moving customers to the correct part of the train at the next station. I have in the past had to request BTP to a train to encourage a cyclist who was ramming her way - without a reservation - onto a peak time, full and standing service, which was already carrying the max number of cycles, to get off and talk to us on the platform. Sometimes people are daft and it's up to the staff to manage these people for the good of all the other customers.

HOOVER29 · 20 Oct 2019

They could always attach a clsss 153 on the back end to put the said bicycles in
Seriously though at the end of the day some people just don’t care. "I’ve paid for my ticket so I’ll put my bike which nowadays can cost thousands where I can see it"
I have a mountain bike that cost me £2,500 & I won’t let it out of my sight when I’m out
At the end of the day most trains aren’t suitable nowadays.
They maybe fast & can hold 400 plus passengers but if those passengers each have a suitcase where do they put them?

Bletchleyite · 20 Oct 2019

DynamicSpirit said:
But none of that excuses the kind of behaviour that @Bletchleyite described at the start of this thread. No matter how frustrating the experience of travelling with a cycle, you can still be considerate to other passengers!

Precisely my point. In a nearly empty train with no other bicycles on board, they should have gone in the space provided for that purpose, or at least in the vestibule on the side where the doors don't open (as northbound for LNR services on the WCML all intermediate platforms are on the same side).

Bletchleyite · 20 Oct 2019

tpjm said:
I agree with @Bletchleyite that the on-board and station team should be managing these types of customer failure and assisting (granted, in a polite way) with moving customers to the correct part of the train at the next station. I have in the past had to request BTP to a train to encourage a cyclist who was ramming her way - without a reservation - onto a peak time, full and standing service, which was already carrying the max number of cycles, to get off and talk to us on the platform. Sometimes people are daft and it's up to the staff to manage these people for the good of all the other customers.

I recall seeing that happen on a full and standing GWR stopping service southbound from Slough at about 1745 during disruption. He was moving his front wheel back and forward to force himself on. He would have got very short shrift indeed if he had pushed his bicycle wheel against my legs in that manner.

The thing is, I'm a cyclist, and I occasionally take my bike on the train (though mostly it is parked at the station as I find that more convenient). But I put my bike (and, for that matter, luggage) where it's supposed to go and don't inconvenience others with it. I'm not sure why some seem to find this so hard.

Like many other examples of bad cyclist behaviour (such as running red lights), I don't like the way it tends to bring me into disrepute with it.

The Ham · 20 Oct 2019

Bletchleyite said:
Like many other examples of bad cyclist behaviour (such as running red lights), I don't like the way it tends to bring me into disrepute with it.

Like most other [insert group of your choice]'s bad behaviour, it tends to be the 1 incident of it which you notice rather than the 100's of good examples.

For instance if you get on a train and don't sit near the cycle spaces you're not going to see those who do use them.

Now consider how often you make a journey on a train and then how many times you've seen bad behaviour from cyclists? Probably fairly rarely. Then consider that on each train you're using there could be several cyclists.

Matt_pool · 20 Oct 2019

js1000 said:
I sympathise. Personally speaking from someone in Northern land I believe bikes shouldn't be allowed on trains at peak hours. I am aware this is already the case in London? They simply take up too much space and unfortunately my experience is that cyclists are not the most considerate bunch in this regards. If it means pushing on first with their bike and passengers left on the platform because the service is too busy then most couldn't care less.

I agree with that. I'm in Northern land too.

If you are lucky my morning commute from south Liverpool to Lime Street is operated by a 2 carriage 156. Everyone gets a seat, maybe with 2 or 3 people standing, and with 1 bike in its designated place not obstructing anyone.

But 3 days in a row last week the random unit generator gave us a 2 carriage 150. The first 2 days I managed to get a seat, if you can call it a seat with those bloody awful 3+2 configurations.

Luckily there were no bikes, but the passengers getting on at the next couple of stops had to stand and sniff each others armpits!

3rd day, another 2 carriage 150, and bizarrely for a Friday when it's usually less busy, the train arrived already packed. I got a standing space at the rear before everyone else could pile in. But there was nowhere for them to stand except in the door vestibule. A few people stood in the aisle, but a large area that would normally have 10 seats was replaced by 2 fold up bench seats with 2 bikes on one side and 1 bike on the other.

You could have had about 15 people stood there.

Oh, and one of the cyclists was sat on the seat next to where I was stood. So he and his bike were taking up the space of 5 people but with only 1 fare paid!

Don't even get me started on the 2 carriage Pacer that turned up the other week with 2 bikes on it!

bramling · 20 Oct 2019

Matt_pool said:
I agree with that. I'm in Northern land too.

If you are lucky my morning commute from south Liverpool to Lime Street is operated by a 2 carriage 156. Everyone gets a seat, maybe with 2 or 3 people standing, and with 1 bike in its designated place not obstructing anyone.

But 3 days in a row last week the random unit generator gave us a 2 carriage 150. The first 2 days I managed to get a seat, if you can call it a seat with those bloody awful 3+2 configurations.

Luckily there were no bikes, but the passengers getting on at the next couple of stops had to stand and sniff each others armpits!

3rd day, another 2 carriage 150, and bizarrely for a Friday when it's usually less busy, the train arrived already packed. I got a standing space at the rear before everyone else could pile in. But there was nowhere for them to stand except in the door vestibule. A few people stood in the aisle, but a large area that would normally have 10 seats was replaced by 2 fold up bench seats with 2 bikes on one side and 1 bike on the other.

You could have had about 15 people stood there.

Oh, and one of the cyclists was sat on the seat next to where I was stood. So he and his bike were taking up the space of 5 people but with only 1 fare paid!

Don't even get me started on the 2 carriage Pacer that turned up the other week with 2 bikes on it!

I've seen similar on the suburban routes out of KX. Normally when either a 4-car train runs in place of something booked as 8-car, or when there's an event on which causes a normally lightly loaded service to become unusually busy. In both cases I've seen some pretty nasty spats when people moan about a bike on the train. I don't really see why someone with a bike should be expected to melt into thin air just because a train has become unusually busy, which seems to be the expectation of some.

Like most things, too many people.

CentralTrainer · 20 Oct 2019

The main issue I do have is those on very busy services who stand there with a Brompton etc that they could easily fold up to make more space with it unfolded. And refusing to fold up when politely asked.

It’s the same with folding pushchairs

bramling · 20 Oct 2019

CentralTrainer said:
The main issue I do have is those on very busy services who stand there with a Brompton etc that they could easily fold up to make more space with it unfolded. And refusing to fold up when politely asked.

It may be the case that some Brompton users are reluctant to fold unless absolutely necessary because the action of folding/unfolding does impose a slight stress on the cables. Not a major issue, but perhaps enough over time that some people will try to minimise.

I suspect there's also an element of double-edged sword mentality - people in general aren't particularly considerate towards cyclists, so why should they reciprocate?

al78 · 20 Oct 2019

bramling said:
I suspect there's also an element of double-edged sword mentality - people in general aren't particularly considerate towards cyclists, so why should they reciprocate?

The obvious answer is two wrongs don't make a right, or treat people how you would like to be treated yourself.

My experience as a cyclist is people are reasonable in all but very rare cases. I don't tend to get trouble when road cycling and no-one has ever complained about where I put my bicycle on a train. Most pedestrians will make way for me on shared use paths. I'm guessing that some areas are more hostile for cyclists than others, but I don't see that as a reason to behave likewise, at worst it just fuels the antagonism.

Bletchleyite · 20 Oct 2019

al78 said:
The obvious answer is two wrongs don't make a right, or treat people how you would like to be treated yourself.

My experience as a cyclist is people are reasonable in all but very rare cases. I don't tend to get trouble when road cycling and no-one has ever complained about where I put my bicycle on a train. Most pedestrians will make way for me on shared use paths. I'm guessing that some areas are more hostile for cyclists than others, but I don't see that as a reason to behave likewise, at worst it just fuels the antagonism.

I think London is probably the worst place for it because people are fighting over inadequate road space. In MK there's almost none of it because of the provision of Dutch-style segregated cycle paths where there's plenty of space for everyone, though in the older areas where these aren't provided you do get a lot of pavement cycling because people are just used to the idea of cycling on the path rather than the road and it doesn't occur to them that there's any difference between a pavement (where cycling is not allowed) and a Redway or leisure path (where it is). Sometimes cycling *is* allowed on pavements in MK, in which case they are done with red tarmac making them also a Redway, as well as having characteristic yellow bollards at road crossings.

(MK has two levels of shared paths - a Redway, which has red tarmac, is supposed to be treated as a traffic-free country lane, cycling on the left and walking on the right and looking out for each other, whereas a Leisure Path, which typically has a loose gravel surface and is narrower, allows cycling but with priority to pedestrians).

Bikes on trains again (and other inconsiderate annoyances)

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