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"Services Precancelled"

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py_megapixel

py_megapixel

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Came across this message on a departure board earlier:
"Some trains will be pre-cancelled this Sunday. This is due to a lack of train crew. Please check before you travel with your train operating company and at National Rail Enquiries"

To me, "pre-cancelled" sounds an awful lot like an excuse not to pay delay repay to passengers who are forced to get a later train, especially if it was announced after a substantial number of passengers would already have planned their journey.

Any thoughts?
 
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dk1

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Most TOCs do this if its known services cannot operate for any number of reasons. When agreed in advance it avoids some or all of the cancellation fine. No idea how it affects delay repay as not something I've ever considered.
 
Starmill

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If you already had a ticket before 'pre-cancellation' was announced, then your ticket must be honoured and compensation paid in accordance with the original timetable.

If you booked after the announcement of 'pre-cancellation' then you wouldn't.
 
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Bletchleyite

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dk1 said:
Most TOCs do this if its known services cannot operate for any number of reasons. When agreed in advance it avoids some or all of the cancellation fine. No idea how it affects delay repay as not something I've ever considered.
Click to expand...

Delay Repay applies in this sort of case only if the ticket was purchased prior to the cancellation being notified.
 
S

Surreytraveller

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Pre-cancelled means those trains are not counted in PPM (Public Performance Measure) or other official statistics. Basically its statistic fiddling.
 
ComUtoR

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Just because it doesn't count for PPM or whatever; doesn't mean the TOC is trying to fiddle anything or trying to game the system. The services can't run; there isn't anyone to Drive them.

What does everything think is the best course of action. :

Cancel the services giving the passengers enough notice as possible
Keep them in the system knowing that they aren't going to run and then cancel them at the last second.

One you get accused of acting fraudulently, but are being honest.
The other you are clearly being dishonest and will get accused of being useless etc etc.

If the system allows for a cancellation to not count against PPM or there is no punitive damage(s) for the TOC then the system is not working as intended or it is as intended but an acceptable consequence of the 'pre cancellations'
 
bb21

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Surreytraveller said:
Pre-cancelled means those trains are not counted in PPM (Public Performance Measure) or other official statistics. Basically its statistic fiddling.
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Pre-cancelling does not automatically mean exclusion for PPM purposes.

In any case, PPM is not what matters most to most TOCs.

It does however take the cancellation out of Schedule 8, hence can only be done with agreement between TOC and NR.
 
bb21

bb21

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In any case, abuse the process and expect to be challenged by the DfT, who can be very sharp on things like these.

Before anyone asks, yes, I am aware of (more than one) TOCs who had incurred the wrath of the DfT for this very reason. It is not in any TOC's interest to "fiddle the figures" (so to speak) through this process.
 
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Hadders

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I thought refusing to pay delay repay applied if an emergency timetable was introduced, not because they’ve pre-cancelled some trains.

They key point is does the cancellation of somebody trains in advance constitute an emergency timetable.

I’d say it doesn’t.
 
tbtc

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pdeaves said:
Just letting passengers know as soon as possible about any changes, rather than at the last moment when stress would be much higher and alternatives may not be readily available. Good customer service, I would say, mitigating/minimising the effects.
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ComUtoR said:
Just because it doesn't count for PPM or whatever; doesn't mean the TOC is trying to fiddle anything or trying to game the system. The services can't run; there isn't anyone to Drive them.

What does everything think is the best course of action. :

Cancel the services giving the passengers enough notice as possible
Keep them in the system knowing that they aren't going to run and then cancel them at the last second.

One you get accused of acting fraudulently, but are being honest.
The other you are clearly being dishonest and will get accused of being useless etc etc.

If the system allows for a cancellation to not count against PPM or there is no punitive damage(s) for the TOC then the system is not working as intended or it is as intended but an acceptable consequence of the 'pre cancellations'
Click to expand...

I agree with the above two posters.

I don't pretend to know enough about Delay Repay or how the PPM stats are calculated, but if a TOC clearly knows days in advance that it won't have sufficient staff (or stock) to run a particular service then I'd rather know about it as soon as possible - that's good customer service to me.

TOCs shouldn't be "gaming" the system, of course, and I'm sure that some TOCs *do* game the system, but the most important thing is to give passengers sufficient warning so that they aren't stood at a platform waiting for the hourly service to arrive (only to find out that we knew several days ago that half the departures wouldn't be running, but it's too late to make alternative plans now because you're stood at the platform so you're stuck).
 
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Snow1964

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Just been trying to digest the posts above.

Are they saying, even if tickets have already been sold for the service, it can be excluded from cancellation statistics.

Even more weird is if stupidity of timetabling it, but forgetting to employ or schedule staff (so it 100% our fault) still allows it to to be excluded.

To me that is just cancelled (but not at last minute). Logically a pre-cancellation has to be between it being in a published timetable, and tickets being sold, otherwise cancelling a partially sold service isn’t pre- (Although Railway might use some warped definition).
 
R

RAPC

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Northern pre cancel at my station on the majority of Sundays. Had no issues with delay repay each time.
 
L

LAX54

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so we get a TOC pre-warning passengers of a cancellation, and people still moan ! LOL maybe they should not bother, and just announce it on the day ?
 
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Mag_seven

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At least they are making the effort to tell people in advance so they can plan ahead. GWR just schedule a full service on a Sunday and hope for the best that they can resource it on the day with resulting chaos on the day if they can't.
 
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geoffk

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py_megapixel said:
Came across this message on a departure board earlier:
"Some trains will be pre-cancelled this Sunday. This is due to a lack of train crew. Please check before you travel with your train operating company and at National Rail Enquiries"

To me, "pre-cancelled" sounds an awful lot like an excuse not to pay delay repay to passengers who are forced to get a later train, especially if it was announced after a substantial number of passengers would already have planned their journey.

Any thoughts?
Click to expand...
Let me guess - it's Northern.
 
dk1

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swills said:
so we get a TOC pre-warning passengers of a cancellation, and people still moan ! LOL maybe they should not bother, and just announce it on the day ?
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Poor railway can never win with the flipping public mate. Good job we have such broad shoulders & thick skin :lol:
 
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sheff1

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ComUtoR said:
What does everything think is the best course of action.'
Click to expand...

1. Announce the cancellations at the earliest possible time to allow travellers to plan accordingly.

2.Include all the cancellations in performance statistics. Then determine whether thresholds for sanctions are breached based on the total number of trains cancelled whether that cancellation is days before or on the day.
 
B

BucksBones

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swills said:
so we get a TOC pre-warning passengers of a cancellation, and people still moan ! LOL maybe they should not bother, and just announce it on the day ?
Click to expand...


Of course they moan, their trains are cancelled!

Clearly it’s better to pre-warn than cancel ad-hoc, so credit where it’s due; but you can’t expect the travelling public (who won’t be au fait with the nuances of railway employment practices) to be happy when they are travelling in horrendously cramped conditions because 50% of their services have been cancelled, planned or unplanned. I’m afraid people see “lack of available train crew” as simply poor management and not a valid excuse.
 
W

Weekender

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BucksBones said:
Of course they moan, their trains are cancelled!

Clearly it’s better to pre-warn than cancel ad-hoc, so credit where it’s due; but you can’t expect the travelling public (who won’t be au fait with the nuances of railway employment practices) to be happy when they are travelling in horrendously cramped conditions because 50% of their services have been cancelled, planned or unplanned. I’m afraid people see “lack of available train crew” as simply poor management and not a valid excuse.
Click to expand...
To be fair lack of train crew is bad management.
 
X

XC90

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RAPC said:
Northern pre cancel at my station on the majority of Sundays. Had no issues with delay repay each time.
Click to expand...
The only way round ifine is a temporary timetable. Same for delay repay.
 
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