• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

ScotRail HST Introduction - Updates & Discussion

Status
Not open for further replies.

sprinterguy

Established Member
Joined
4 Mar 2010
Messages
11,056
Location
Macclesfield
Why are you sad? The HSTs are ancient and all of the evidence available shows that they can't provide the service.
Presumably because it would mean dirty, shortformed (or cancelled) and unrefurbished trains for years to come, rather than eventually actually seeing the squadron fleet of refurbished High Speed Trains that should have already been fully in service by now.
 
Last edited:
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

380101

Member
Joined
18 Feb 2015
Messages
1,001
Am I the only one who thinks that the MD should be making more productive use of their time, like I don't know, maybe sorting out what resources are required to get trains on the tracks!

Don't forget he is MD of "Scotland's Railway" a Network Rail position really. Angus Thom, the Chief Operating Officer of Abellio ScotRail, really runs ScotRail on a day to day basis.
 

Highland37

Established Member
Joined
29 Jun 2012
Messages
1,259
Presumably because it would mean dirty, shortformed (or cancelled) and unrefurbished trains for years to come, rather than eventually actually seeing the squadron fleet of refurbished High Speed Trains that should have already been fully in service by now.

That's one explanation but I reckon it's more to do with affection and nostalgia. The data don't support the notion that the HSTs will deliver the service. Indeed, the evidence shows that there are more short forms purely due to the HSTs not being available. The HSTs have made the service worse.
 

Northhighland

Member
Joined
19 Aug 2016
Messages
606
That's one explanation but I reckon it's more to do with affection and nostalgia. The data don't support the notion that the HSTs will deliver the service. Indeed, the evidence shows that there are more short forms purely due to the HSTs not being available. The HSTs have made the service worse.

You present new stock orders as some sort of magic bullet. It isn’t. You are simply selling moonbeams.

Look at every single new stock order in the UK. They take at least two years longer than planned to be fully introduced. Order today from a supplier already in use in the UK such as the MK 5 coaches and locos for trans pennine and we will be lucky to see a train in service until 2024-25 at the earliest.

What until then? More short firmed trains, more 158’s to cover 4 coach trains?

Simple as this. In the short to medium term the HST mess needs sorted. GWR can run them quite successfully so Scotrail can as well. Just need to get a change of attitude and direction.
 
Last edited:

43096

On Moderation
Joined
23 Nov 2015
Messages
15,266
That's one explanation but I reckon it's more to do with affection and nostalgia. The data don't support the notion that the HSTs will deliver the service. Indeed, the evidence shows that there are more short forms purely due to the HSTs not being available. The HSTs have made the service worse.
Given that they are working OK elsewhere, I’d suggest the issue is with the people maintaining and operating them for ScotRail rather than the trains themselves.
 

RLBH

Member
Joined
17 May 2018
Messages
962
Why are you sad? The HSTs are ancient and all of the evidence available shows that they can't provide the service.
Presumably because @PG would rather you were proved wrong and the HSTs enter service in that timeframe. Because anything ordered in their place certainly won't be, and if nothing shows up then the service will continue to be disappointing for a very long time. As much as the HST programme has fallen short, resolving the issues with it is going to be a quicker, cheaper option than starting fresh.

If the issues prove to be impossible to resolve, then abandoning the programme might make sense. But as GWR and XC don't seem to be having anything like the same trouble, ScotRail's problems must have a solution. And I'd be saying the same thing whether it were HSTs, a Black 5 and Mark 1 coaches, or something shiny and new from CAF that had been delayed.
 

Speed43125

Member
Joined
20 Jul 2019
Messages
1,136
Location
Dunblane
Presumably because @PG would rather you were proved wrong and the HSTs enter service in that timeframe. Because anything ordered in their place certainly won't be, and if nothing shows up then the service will continue to be disappointing for a very long time. As much as the HST programme has fallen short, resolving the issues with it is going to be a quicker, cheaper option than starting fresh.

If the issues prove to be impossible to resolve, then abandoning the programme might make sense. But as GWR and XC don't seem to be having anything like the same trouble, ScotRail's problems must have a solution. And I'd be saying the same thing whether it were HSTs, a Black 5 and Mark 1 coaches, or something shiny and new from CAF that had been delayed.
What we need is for a couple of the guys from GWR, or Craigentinny or somewhere have a look at what work is being done by SR and reach a conclusion on is it the train crews, the maintenance carried out, improper refurbishment, or just Sh*t stock released from GW.
 

Paul Kerr

Member
Joined
6 Nov 2017
Messages
143
Given that they are working OK elsewhere, I’d suggest the issue is with the people maintaining and operating them for ScotRail rather than the trains themselves.

Agreed. It's quite interesting that these so-called "ancient trains" are still providing sterling service for XC, MML and LNER, not to mention the castle sets on GWR working OK from what has been discussed elsewhere, but with the ScotRail sets there are so many issues. Could it be down to lack of familiarity on the part if the train and maintenance crews? They are very different beasts from the multiple unit based trains that they are replacing.
 

Highland37

Established Member
Joined
29 Jun 2012
Messages
1,259
You present new stock orders as some sort of magic bullet. It isn’t. You are simply selling moonbeams.

Look at every single new stock order in the UK. They take at least two years longer than planned to be fully introduced. Order today from a supplier already in use in the UK such as the MK 5 coaches and locos for trans pennine and we will be lucky to see a train in service until 2024-25 at the earliest.

What until then? More short firmed trains, more 158’s to cover 4 coach trains?

Simple as this. In the short to medium term the HST mess needs sorted. GWR can run them quite successfully so Scotrail can as well. Just need to get a change of attitude and direction.

Is there any new stock introduction that has gone as badly as the Scotrail HST fiasco? Few trains available, poor management of training and the end product not being that great as well as unreliable. We can all use adjectives such as "sterling" but the data don't support these assertions.

I am not suggesting cancelling the programme. I am saying plan now for replacement and get that order in as soon as possible as the evidence is that the HSTs have caused a reduction in service in almost every area.
 

Speed43125

Member
Joined
20 Jul 2019
Messages
1,136
Location
Dunblane
Is there any new stock introduction that has gone as badly as the Scotrail HST fiasco? Few trains available, poor management of training and the end product not being that great as well as unreliable. We can all use adjectives such as "sterling" but the data don't support these assertions.

I am not suggesting cancelling the programme. I am saying plan now for replacement and get that order in as soon as possible as the evidence is that the HSTs have caused a reduction in service in almost every area.
On the contrary the data with all the other HST operators including other Wabtec refurbs seem to show they are pretty reliable. ScotRail is the outlyer rather than the norm.
 

fishquinn

Established Member
Associate Staff
Quizmaster
Joined
4 Oct 2013
Messages
6,643
Location
Warwickshire
On the contrary the data with all the other HST operators including other Wabtec refurbs seem to show they are pretty reliable. ScotRail is the outlyer rather than the norm.
Indeed. I'm not sure as to what the root issue is for Scotrail but it doesn't seem to be affecting GWR and Cross Country's refurb sets and other 'classic' sets in the country. This probably stems from a lack of maintenance knowledge, as normally happens with new fleets at first. I do however have to question why it's taking this long to get things sorted. Is there any sign of some of the staff from Craigentinny transferring over to Haymarket now the HSTs are being removed from LNER? I'd imagine, assuming Scotrail could give a competitive offer, that some would be happy to transfer between the two given they already have the knowledge on HSTs.

Cross Country had all 4 of their available sets out today as booked (including 3 refurb sets) so it really does seem like a Scotrail issue. Nevertheless, I only saw one booked HST turn today and it was an HST (albeit a classic one), which kind of bodes well I suppose.
 

InvHst

Member
Joined
9 Dec 2018
Messages
268
Simple facts are scotrail are having severe issues with their HST fleet. Looks like they have changed the diagrams again with the 0735 out of aberdeen now a 170 rather than HST and apparently replaced that diagram with the 0944 Inverness to Edinburgh which starts at Aberdeen at 6ish. However the past two mornings the 944 is still a 170 so I believe they are lowering the amount of diagrams to make it look better on them when they do run. Until scotrail actually get some help from experts then this sorry situation ain't gonna get any better
 

InvHst

Member
Joined
9 Dec 2018
Messages
268
Your major issue is that the only places where these trains can be maintained apparently is Inverness and Haymarket. Which is completely hopeless when you have diagrams finish in Aberdeen and Glasgow so if their is a big issue to fix with one then it has to be taken to Edinburgh or Inverness.
 

najaB

Veteran Member
Joined
28 Aug 2011
Messages
30,783
Location
Scotland
Which is completely hopeless when you have diagrams finish in Aberdeen and Glasgow so if their is a big issue to fix with one then it has to be taken to Edinburgh or Inverness.
Is any significant work done on DMUs in Aberdeen?
 

InOban

Established Member
Joined
12 Mar 2017
Messages
4,216
Indeed. I'm not sure as to what the root issue is for Scotrail but it doesn't seem to be affecting GWR and Cross Country's refurb sets and other 'classic' sets in the country. This probably stems from a lack of maintenance knowledge, as normally happens with new fleets at first. I do however have to question why it's taking this long to get things sorted. Is there any sign of some of the staff from Craigentinny transferring over to Haymarket now the HSTs are being removed from LNER? I'd imagine, assuming Scotrail could give a competitive offer, that some would be happy to transfer between the two given they already have the knowledge on HSTs.

Cross Country had all 4 of their available sets out today as booked (including 3 refurb sets) so it really does seem like a Scotrail issue. Nevertheless, I only saw one booked HST turn today and it was an HST (albeit a classic one), which kind of bodes well I suppose.
The list of refurb services tweeted this morning suggested that 4 were in use, although this may have been messed up by the collision between a170 and a cow near Leuchars this morning.
 

PG

Established Member
Joined
12 Oct 2010
Messages
2,842
Location
at the end of the high and low roads
I am saying plan now for replacement and get that order in as soon as possible as the evidence is that the HSTs have caused a reduction in service in almost every area.
Yes this - it's now evident that years are going to pass before things get back to pre HST levels never mind show great improvements.

Since as other posters have pointed out new stock takes years to get built, delivered and reliably into service then maybe it's time for Transport Scotland to do as Dft did with IEPs (or whatever they are known as!) and order new stock within the next year or two (as procurement will probably take that long) for whoever happens to be operating Scotrail.

Then passengers can finally have the promised services reliably operating from the mid to late 2020's.

Does anyone know how much of the parent company support has been used? Presumably once it has all been used then Abellio will be free to hand back the keys just like VTEC did with EastCoast?

Sadly I don't think whoever's name is above the door is going to make much difference to the HST program as most staff will stay the same. I'm sure they are trying their best to get HSTs out every day but if they want to keep their jobs then I suspect they can't reveal what's really going on and why the HST program is having continuing problems.
 

BRX

Established Member
Joined
20 Oct 2008
Messages
3,629
I reckon they just weren't properly prepared. We know there's been a backlog training up drivers and guards, and there's been other stuff like the sidings for them at Inverness not even being ready before introduction. So it seems rather likely that they haven't had sufficient people ready and trained for them on the maintenance side of things either. To start with, these issues were disguised by the slow rate of delivery from Wabtec, but now everyone can see that they can't even get the ones that have been delivered in service reliably. And everyone can also see that other operators aren't having the same problems. So I think it's fair enough to stick up for the trains and point the finger towards management issues instead.
 

PG

Established Member
Joined
12 Oct 2010
Messages
2,842
Location
at the end of the high and low roads
Your major issue is that the only places where these trains can be maintained apparently is Inverness and Haymarket. Which is completely hopeless when you have diagrams finish in Aberdeen and Glasgow so if their is a big issue to fix with one then it has to be taken to Edinburgh or Inverness.
Is any significant work done on DMUs in Aberdeen?
To the best of my knowledge no significant work is undertaken on DMUs in Aberdeen.
I think the point @najaB is making is that since services have operated successfully with DMUs that received minimal attention in Aberdeen that alone shouldn't be the cause of problems with HSTs operating some of the same diagrams.
 

PG

Established Member
Joined
12 Oct 2010
Messages
2,842
Location
at the end of the high and low roads
So I think it's fair enough to stick up for the trains and point the finger towards management issues instead.
Question is then - would this management change if a new name was above the door?
Or are some of the problems possibly due to management not acknowledging their own failings which have led to the current situation?
 

Pete_uk

Established Member
Joined
28 Jan 2017
Messages
1,252
Location
Stroud, Glos
68 and Mk5s would be my order. But that's off topic. It's a shame as this is a great idea but sadly there seems to be to much rust
 

XC90

Member
Joined
4 Jun 2015
Messages
229
So many suitable sets being disposed of from LNER that could be brought in. Cancel the refurbs which are taking too long.
 

Northhighland

Member
Joined
19 Aug 2016
Messages
606
Your major issue is that the only places where these trains can be maintained apparently is Inverness and Haymarket. Which is completely hopeless when you have diagrams finish in Aberdeen and Glasgow so if their is a big issue to fix with one then it has to be taken to Edinburgh or Inverness.

Again this isn’t a new problem. If the service worked before with Inverness and Edinburgh as maintenance depots it can work again.

The teams in these depots did a good job with 158/170’s. They can do the same again. Must be more to this.
 

Speed43125

Member
Joined
20 Jul 2019
Messages
1,136
Location
Dunblane

gsnedders

Established Member
Joined
6 Sep 2015
Messages
1,472
So many suitable sets being disposed of from LNER that could be brought in. Cancel the refurbs which are taking too long.
They'd still need refurbed, though, as the (currently) LNER stock doesn't comply with PRM requirements. Perhaps more viable would be to take some Mk4s (are there enough locos with ETS available?), but then you're back to a fair wait for the Mk4s to be available.
 

Sighthill East

New Member
Joined
29 Nov 2018
Messages
2
Correct me if I am wrong but was the original plan for maintenance of the HSTs not to have Craigentinny do all the work but with Hitachi taking over the depot, they weren't interested in extra work.

Haymarket is not fit for HST operations, not enough space.
 

najaB

Veteran Member
Joined
28 Aug 2011
Messages
30,783
Location
Scotland
Correct me if I am wrong but was the original plan for maintenance of the HSTs not to have Craigentinny do all the work but with Hitachi taking over the depot, they weren't interested in extra work.
I know that was mentioned, but I'd be hard pressed to say if it was a plan or merely an idea.
 

47271

Established Member
Joined
28 Apr 2015
Messages
2,983
How likely is it that they'll ditch the classics ahead of the PRM deadline in December and then stumble on with a mix of the few refurbs and 158s and 170s until all refurbs are complete, or they think of something else, whichever comes first?
 

najaB

Veteran Member
Joined
28 Aug 2011
Messages
30,783
Location
Scotland
How likely is it that they'll ditch the classics ahead of the PRM deadline in December and then stumble on with a mix of the few refurbs and 158s and 170s until all refurbs are complete, or they think of something else, whichever comes first?
Much more likely that they've already applied for an exemption on the basis that delivery of the compliant stock is being delayed.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top