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Commuter Ferries
- Thread starter markymark2000
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There's the various chain ferries, two notable ones are the Cowes floating bridge and the Sandbanks Ferry. Both notable as they both have been having serious problems as of late. The sandbanks ferry particularly, even more so that it is quite a diversion to get around it not being in service, i.e. from terminal to terminal it is about 27 miles, yet the crossing is under 400 yards!
MoleStation
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It's been said before but the Shields Ferry is about the best example. A kinda railway still operating a boat. And when it knacks up, which is rare, the rail replacement boat(?) is truly a bugger
Midnight Sun
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20 minuites to go through the small lock at Mode Wheel.
The North Briton
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I witnessed two consecutive arrivals at the Seacombe terminal and there were about 30 commuters on each. If the Wirral Waters development around Birkenhead East Float ever gets off the ground, the ferry would be an attractive commute for residents: ten minutes walk and ten minutes on the ferry to Liverpool city centre.
markymark2000
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Is that the larger or smaller lock?
20 minutes is a long time. Wow. Ok, perhaps that wouldn't prove so attractive. Unless Media City into the city was very quick but I can't see it being that quick.
markymark2000
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30... Is that it!? That is really low given the amount of cross river commuters. I suppose multi modal isn't really attractive given the bus is £15 a week to the terminal then £14.50 for a ferry weekly (or £24.50 if you get a TRIO ticket for B1 and C1). For it to be worthwhile, you have to be just a ferry user and not use the bus to connect in at either end. Could that be the issue with the Mersey Ferries.
A terminal much closer to New Brighton would be ideal for it to get the passengers really but I doubt that is possible with the water depth and the tides.
The North Briton
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Yeah, it’s a shame they don’t push the simple return fare, which is the same price as an undiscounted return tunnel toll (but without the exorbitant cost of parking in Liverpool city centre). The only stipulation being that at least one leg should be on the direct commuter service (so, latest 0940 departure from Seacombe and, presumably, not available at the weekend).
Ferries are fine if there's no viable fixed link option. The Thames Clippers are a bit odd, really- they're a premium product (compared to the equivalent rail options, they cost more), have a max speed of a little over 30mph, on an indirect route, and require something like 6 staff on each boat, for only 200 or so passengers.
Which is why the proposed idea of running services from out in the estuary into central London will never happen beyond the pilot ones. They burn huge amounts of fuel, especially when pushing upstream on an ebb tide.
Which is why the proposed idea of running services from out in the estuary into central London will never happen beyond the pilot ones. They burn huge amounts of fuel, especially when pushing upstream on an ebb tide.
markymark2000
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6 crew? 4 isn't it. Captain and 3 others with 1 normally on cafe duties. Trains in London can have 3 crew depending on operator (Driver, guard & buffet trolley).
While they may be slightly more expensive, people pay it for the fact they are guaranteed a seat and it can be quicker than using land transport depending on their end destination.
edwin_m
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The sorts of trains competing with the Thames Clipper will have one or two staff members not three, for a similar seating capacity on the Tube and about double on the main line, with far higher capacity if standing is taken into account (not allowed on the Clipper).
Yes it occupies a niche in the London travel market, as you say it's likely to be quickest for something like Blackfriars to the western end of Canary Wharf, you get a seat and it's also a more interesting option for tourists than yet another bus or tube. But there probably isn't anywhere else in the UK where a similar operation would be viable.
Tetchytyke
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The Thames Clippers have carved out a nice little niche for themselves, but a niche it remains. It's rarely quicker but it is more scenic and it can be more comfortable. A lovely way home as a treat on a summer's evening; I used it out to Chiswick when meeting friends as it was just *nice*.
I can't see many other places which have rivers as accommodating as the Thames for high-speed river traffic though. As I said upthread, the Tyne has a speed limit of 6 knots and the Clyde isn't much faster at 12 knots. You're not going to develop a network of commuter ferries at those sorts of speeds. Unless you're going straight from one bank to the other it's simply too slow.
I can't see many other places which have rivers as accommodating as the Thames for high-speed river traffic though. As I said upthread, the Tyne has a speed limit of 6 knots and the Clyde isn't much faster at 12 knots. You're not going to develop a network of commuter ferries at those sorts of speeds. Unless you're going straight from one bank to the other it's simply too slow.
I used to use the Thames Clipper service about 13 years ago when I lived in Tooting. Thameslink to Blackfriars and then Clipper to Canary Wharf. Complimentary newspaper and a nice cup of coffee en route to work was much nicer than the northern line / DLR alternative. Occasionally had a cheeky bottle of Becks on the return journey too.
The journey became significantly slower around 2008 I think, when the Port of London Authority placed a blanket speed restriction west of Tower Bridge (might be five knots but don't quote me on that). Before then they'd whizz up and down the central part of the journey. Blackfriars to Canary Wharf used to take 20 mins tops. Fewer piers to stop off at too, back then. I think it was the original terminus Savoy (not Embankment), then Blackfriars, London Bridge and Canary Wharf (then on to Greenwich / Woolwich). They used to swerve Bankside and Tower Piers in the rush hour.
Midnight Sun
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12 knot speed limit between Wandsworth Bridge and Margaretness ((just east of London City Airport!)
8 knot speed limit upstream (ie west of) Wandsworth Bridge.
Midnight Sun
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I did quote the small lock using the middle set of gates. The large lock takes 50 miniutes. The faster you fill or empty a lock the more turbulence you get. Which can lead to ropes snaping under heavy load, if the boat breaks lose, even a small narrowboat (15-20 tons) can cause a great deal of damage to a lock gate and a very rough ride for anyone on board.
markymark2000
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Shame about all the speed restrictions and locks really as other countries manage commuter ferries so well. It really could be a great way to reduce road congestion.
People choose the ferry because it's a relaxing way to get to work and depending on the locations of piers, they may be better located for your journey compared to a train. You're guaranteed a seat and it's a lot less overcrowded so if the option is there, it would be daft not to take advantage of it.
People choose the ferry because it's a relaxing way to get to work and depending on the locations of piers, they may be better located for your journey compared to a train. You're guaranteed a seat and it's a lot less overcrowded so if the option is there, it would be daft not to take advantage of it.
WatcherZero
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less than there used to be, despite the large public subsidy its only being kept afloat with the revenue from pleasure cruises along the waterfront and up the ship canal to Manchester and they are reducing from 3 to 2 boats. In 1950 they carried 30m, now they carry 600-650,000 a year of which 400-450,000 are the cruises and charters according to Merseytravel.
where there are these systems abroad the primary motivation is to cross a bay or large river when there is limited tunnels/bridges available. (E.g. Kowloon peninsula to Hong Kong island, Crossing between Central and North Amsterdam, crossing New York Harbour, crossing Sydney Bay, crossing the Mersey Estuary, Crossing the Thames) and That situation doesn't some up much in British cities.
A ferry service between Cardiff and Bristol (or other location across the Bristol Channel) would be on the long side but might be viable, though take a few years to build a market, cant think of any other possible new ferry services.
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ian1944
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There's a summer-only Cromarty-Nigg car/pedestrian ferry, also Fort William-Camusnagaul and at nearby Corran, all general-purpose rather than "commuter" but some travel to/from work will be taking place.
A possible improvement over the M25 or North Circular...
xc170
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Lets not forget a large part of Calmac network in Scotland will be used by people commuting to and from work...
edwin_m
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I think that's unlikely. Getting near the centre of either city involves passing through locks, which as mentioned above will take a lot of time.
Rich McLean
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There is a few in Plymouth. Cremyl to Stonehouse excepted as is only really useful for Torists. Cawsand passenger ferry has a commuter flow, as does the Mountbatten Ferry which those living in Turnchaple do use, and of course the Torpoint Ferries. Starcross to Exmouth is another in Devon, as is the Kingsware to Darmouth Ferries, and in Cornwall, the Bodinnick Ferry in Fowey. There maybe more
I'd say that other than the relatively straightforward cross-river and mainland - island services mentionned above, a commuter ferry service needs the following:
Near where I live the Brixham Express ferry to Torquay ticked all but box 7, but was badly conceived - there is already a tourist service between the two towns, so their was no leisure traffic to balance the commute, and the vessel was delayed and inappropriate. A better implementation (e.g. by extending the existing leisure route into commuting hours) could well have been successful
Other places that I think could have potential would include:
Operating costs of a ferry are fairly high, but probably not ridiculous compared to rail. Fuel consumption varies massively by speed - under 10 knots it is fairly insignificant, but a fast ferry drinks fuel. 2 crew are required for more than 12 passengers, 3 crew for more than around 100 (though it is risk assessment based), though their wages are likely to be fairly low. On the other hand, capital costs are low in comparison to rail, so it may not be such an expensive option in the right place.
- A relatively open stretch of water, with a decent speed limit, so journey times can be competitive
- Direct access to a berth within walking distance of a town centre or other major employment centre
- Not restricted by tides
- A relatively straight route to a fairly large suburb, or ideally several suburbs
- Some kind of constriction on surface traffic (e.g. needing to go around the stretch of water, congestion etc)
- Ideally, tourist or other leisure traffic during the daytimes to improve profitability (either on same route, or demand to run cruises)
- Operating on relatively sheltered water. Not only does this increase reliability, it also means a Class V certificate is needed for the vessel, rather than a class VI which has time of year and daylight only restrictions, or an expensive EU certificate.
- No locks or restrictive low bridges
- Less than an hour journey time
Near where I live the Brixham Express ferry to Torquay ticked all but box 7, but was badly conceived - there is already a tourist service between the two towns, so their was no leisure traffic to balance the commute, and the vessel was delayed and inappropriate. A better implementation (e.g. by extending the existing leisure route into commuting hours) could well have been successful
Other places that I think could have potential would include:
- Lower Thames - A pier on the East side of Canary Wharf could be useful for services down river towards Woolwich, Barking, Thamesmead etc. Probably as an addition to the Clipper service, but accepting that it is too far to go all the way into London. Something like Grays and/or Canvey Island into Gravesend could also have potential, though there is probably no tourist/ leisure demand.
- Plymouth - In addition to the 3 existing cross-river services, a longer commuter services running Saltash - Torpoint - Devonport - Cremyll - Barbican - Oreston could well work - journey time from Saltash to Barbican would be around 40 mins - competitive with the bus
- Grimsby - Hull. I believe there is no speed limit (possibly 20 knots) in the humber, so a 45 min passage would be possible, significantly less than public transport or driving. This could allow for connecting busses to Cleethorpes etc.
- Liverpool - up/down river services e.g. to Garston, Eastham, New Brighton if a reasonable cost solution could be found for piers in the huge tides. With smaller vessels than the Mersey Ferries fleet, much simpler piers may be possible. Unfortuinately with direct high frequency trains nearby all of these places, point 5 probably is the restriction here
- Port Solent - North Gosport - Portsmouth. Less than 30 mins, poor public transport
- Hamble/Warsash - Southampton (extension of Hythe Ferry) - Less than 30 mins, better than public transport but Town Quay is not that well located.
Operating costs of a ferry are fairly high, but probably not ridiculous compared to rail. Fuel consumption varies massively by speed - under 10 knots it is fairly insignificant, but a fast ferry drinks fuel. 2 crew are required for more than 12 passengers, 3 crew for more than around 100 (though it is risk assessment based), though their wages are likely to be fairly low. On the other hand, capital costs are low in comparison to rail, so it may not be such an expensive option in the right place.
When you look at the map it certainly "feels" that there should be a link. Bristol is on a river that pretty well dries out at low tide. Looking at the OS map there doesn't appear to be anywhere that a boat could berth at all states of the tide. Across the river it looks like a similar situation at both Cardiff and Newport. Even if piers were provided, once you add in the journey to the coast at both ends the fixed link looks like a better option on time.
A key financial issue down to simple geography. Draw a circle around a station and you have the catchment area. Draw a circle around a ferry berth and half of it is just water.
edwin_m
Veteran Member
Not sure if the locks at Hotwells can be used at a all states of the tide. If so a cross-Severn ferry of suitable size could dock at any of the landing points used by the current Floating Harbour ferry, this waterway being originally part of the tidal Avon but the locks now mean it is not tidal. However going through the locks is time-consuming. The alternative would be to continue up the tidal New Cut, but the nearest point on this is closer to the city centre and it would need some sort of rising/lowering quay somewhere around there.
I can't speak for Newport but there's no way of getting anywhere near Cardiff without going through the locks in the barrage.
Snap! Argostoli - Lixori (I would have said vv) is definitely a commuter route, and I also missed the Bristol Ferry the first time I tried to use it too. It worked out OK a year later...
I would offer Kilcreggan to Dunoon too. I can't find the timetable, but it feeds into the trains to Glasgow Central. There is no car ferry alternative that I know of in this case....
Midnight Sun
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According to my navagation notes for the Tidal Avon, Passaged through the locks is three hours before high water until 48 minutes after, although lockings do not normally take place after high water.. At low tide the depth on the new cut is less than three feet at low tide with just the river flow.
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edwin_m
Veteran Member
Puts the kybosh very firmly on that idea then.
There is no Kilcreggan to Dunoon ferry
You are right, it goes to Gourock. I've been on it, but I still can't find the timetable online. Fares, but no times. http://www.spt.co.uk/kilcreggan-ferry/
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