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Caledonian Sleeper

BRX

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20 Oct 2008
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3,629
They should try telling that to my friends to whom it definitely happened while they were holidaying in Italy in the early 2000s. They bedded down in their motorhome at a fairly normal time in the latter part of the evening, and woke up the next day at about 3pm to find that the vehicle had been ransacked. They hadn't eaten or drunk anything the evening before that they hadn't prepared themselves, in the van. When they reported it to the local police, they were told they they'd probably been gassed, and that they dealt with such cases quite regularly.

Yes, it "happened to someone else" but I met them and they recounted the story about two weeks after they got back from their holiday. They were very good, close friends who I trusted and respected, and I have absolutely no reason to believe that they'd made it up.

It is possible that the police had been mistaken about the mechanism that the thieves used to break in to and ransack an occupied camper van undetected. But in the absence of any physical evidence of other ways it might have been achieved (and my friends bore no physical injuries) it does rather put the ball back in the RCA's court to come up with another plausible explanation.
I do have a feeling that it happened to me on a sleeper between Hungary and Poland some time around 2000.

Things taken out of the main compartment of a closed rucksack on the top bunk, something taken from underneath my companion's pillow. I have strange, blurry recollections from the middle of the night. Of course, I might just have underestimated how deeply asleep I would have been, and how well practiced any thieves may have been.
 
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RailUK Forums

route101

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16 May 2010
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10,613
ScotRail used to give them out free. But personally I don't find them very comfortable.

Got one last time on sleeper , lifesaver though never as good as lights off .

Few people asked if the lights could be switched off .
 

swaldman

Member
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19 Jan 2013
Messages
375
Re pods: when they're lying flat, they take at least as much space as a bunk. Obviously. And unlike a bunk, you can't stack them. Their only advantage over bunks is that they can convert into seats (which some bunk arrangements can do as well). That's important for airlines, who need people sitting up for takeoff and landing, but on a 1-night sleeper service it doesn't seem terribly vital.

So, we don't need things that convert to seats, we just want to get lots of beds in. As others have said, the minimum space for transverse bunks in UK loading gauge is probably not so different from normal sleeper cabins[1]. Lengthways, you could get a few more in with a single aisle (I don't know how many more; I don't imagine the difference is all that dramatic). Without working out the floorplan, I suspect that if you didn't stick to accessible aisle widths you could get a lot more in with two aisles and 1-1-1. There'd have to be provision of 1-1 in part of the train for those who needed the wider gap, and I imagine there could be all sorts of arguments around that, since the "accessible" provision would be unambiguously better.
I do wonder whether a 2-2 arrangement could be made to work at the lower level, with a screen to make them not-double-beds. Not like in Megabus Gold where the person away from the aisle is trapped there unless they clamber over the person in the aisle - but more like an airline seat where there's enough room at the foot of the bed to slide out and walk around.

I've heard the idea of "longitudinal bunks would be too dangerous in a crash" before... but then I've thought about the fact that there are coaches (I mean, the things on roads) that have longitudinal bunks, and coaches are more likely to crash than trains and inflict much higher g-forces on their occupants when they do. Possibly the rail authorities simply have higher safety standards, but one wonders whether they should be relaxed a little if that's what makes affordable sleeper services impossible.
 

TheAlbanach_

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1 Jul 2017
Messages
141
Potentially silly suggestion, but would the issues with bright lights in the seated coach not simply be solved by wearing an eye mask? I wonder if it would be worth CS providing one to seated passengers as part of their fare.
They do provide eye masks that were useful for getting a wee bit sleep, but my issue is that I'm not going to sit the whole journey with them on just to avoid the light.
 

Bald Rick

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28 Sep 2010
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29,176
Forgive me if I have missed it, but I have never actually seen any official reference to 'safety' regarding the decision not to progress a 'pod' seating option. Do you have a link at all?

Putting that to one side, however, I can see that it's more than likely that economics and commercial reality would put-paid to the idea of 'pods' anyhow.

If a comparison is made with longhaul post war air travel, broadly-speaking, all passengers started out being accommodated in the same kind of seats. After a while, airlines started making some seats smaller and some a bit bigger. There was a hiatus around the advent of the wide-bodies, the L-1011s, DC-10s and 747s, with some short-lived dalliances with lounge type seating, but the 70s oil crisis, deregulation, competition et al meant that seating densities overall largely reverted to higher levels.

In the early 80s and onwards, airlines started introducing premium 'cabins' with much larger seats, offering significantly more recline.

In the 90s, the first commercial airline flat bed 'pod' seat was introduced in First Class, as aircraft were by then demarked by up to four cabin classes. During the early 2000s, flat bed pod seats were steadily rolled-out to become, largely, the Business Class norm.

As this happened, many airlines took the opportunity to retire their First Class products, as it became increasingly difficult to maintain a commercially-viable gap between two flat bed products.

Accordingly, longhaul airlines started at the opposite end of the scale from overnight sleeper trains in terms of accommodation density and, although the notion of multi-level couchette type bunks on 'planes is floated every now and again, they have thus far not been progressed as they're largely incompatible with the way that airline service works.

The railway in this conext, however, started not just with multi-level sleeping platforms but, almost from the outset, with private rooms. Multi-level sleeping being, generally-speaking, an extremely efficient use of floor space and one that can be priced accordingly.

So, even if there was a safety edict, imagine a pair of airline Business Class flat beds, 6'6" long and about 46" wide, plus the pod 'cocoons' surrounding them. Now work out whether you could get one of those pairs sideways against the outer wall, under the window of a sleeper room. The answer: I don't think that you can, and you'd lose the washbasin too. If the safety angle isn't in fact true, then 'herringbone' arrangements would be a bit more efficient, but not massively-so. In a single aisle UK rail situation, you'd probably stick with 1-2 across the aisle, but you'd need sufficient separation at the foot of the pairs to avoid the 'climbover'.

To move to a pod arrangement in seated accommodation would therefore be less efficient than normal seating and quite possibly, multilevel sleeping platforms. The only way that that could be reconciled would be by pricing it accordingly. However, it would be significantly less private, and potentially a good deal less quiet, comfortable and secure than a sleeper room.

So, how would you price it? The quality of service would be below that of a room, but the land-grab could be a bit higher. The quality of service would be much higher than that of a seat, but the land-grab would be significantly higher. You could cannibalise demand from rooms, or you could find that you had to underprice them to such an extent that the seats are no longer viable and the real low-cost option disappears.

And how would you police self-upgraders who had bought seats and help themselves to a vacant pod? Without airline staff ratios (and it even happens on 'planes with them) it'd be a challenge.

On that basis, the whole notion of pods seems to me to be a complete commercial non-starter in the context of a sleeper train.

The only way that I could see them being relevant on a train at all is as a premium option on services which do not convey sleeper accommodation - which is effectively what Trenitalia and some Asian operators do with their high-end options.

To think about couchettes instead, within the UK loading guage, again I think that the economics are stacked against them from the operator point of view. Floor-space wise, you'd at most save the width of one washbasin width per pair of current rooms. So, that means that you'd need about 5/6ths of the floorspace assuming no narrowing of the sleeping areas themselves. If the operator is working on 100% occupancy of rooms, and it's £200 a room, and they can use all the released space to increase capacity pro-rata, then they'd need 100% occupancy of each couchette at £42 per mattress to make the same revenue.

They would, however, have to balance this against the opportunity loss of not being able to sell 0.83 £200 rooms per two couchettes to someone or a pair who wanted privacy, as well as the incremental costs of marketing to and fulfilling service for potentially 20% more passengers.

The only way that this would work, I think, would be if you applied the no-frills airlines business model and see each ticketholder as an add-on sales opportunity. To do that, you'd need to significantly increase the opportunities for high-margin 'on-spend' - which would usually be for things such as food and drink. However, again, you then have to assess whether the folks that you're attracting with lower prices are actually going to display a propensity to make up all the revenue gap propping up the bar. And if they do, you need more staff.......

On that basis, if it's a reasonably accurate assessment, I can see exactly why CS has specified the stock in the way it has, and I would probably have done the same.

Brilliant analysis. Great post.
 

BRX

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20 Oct 2008
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Here's an early stage 'pod' layout compared to a standard cabin layout.

From here:

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/caf-caledonian-sleeper-lhcs.111932/page-2

24 pods vs 11 cabins (4 of them ensuite). Even though the pods don't take advantage of double-level stacking... they don't do too badly in terms of space efficiency.

I reckon at a push you might get 8 4-bed couchette type compartments in. That would give you 32 beds.

Screen Shot 2019-10-17 at 23.28.09.jpg Screen Shot 2019-10-17 at 23.28.26.jpg
 

swaldman

Member
Joined
19 Jan 2013
Messages
375
Here's an early stage 'pod' layout compared to a standard cabin layout.

From here:

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/caf-caledonian-sleeper-lhcs.111932/page-2

24 pods vs 11 cabins (4 of them ensuite). Even though the pods don't take advantage of double-level stacking... they don't do too badly in terms of space efficiency.

I reckon at a push you might get 8 4-bed couchette type compartments in. That would give you 32 beds.

View attachment 69500 View attachment 69501

Oh, interesting. So that's 24 beds from the pods vs 22 beds from the cabins (assuming double occupancy - we are looking for low cost options here, after all).
That doesn't feel like a terribly good use of space, but they had the right idea with the 2-1 lengthways layout: if there were to be an upper deck, even if the upper deck had to be 1-1, that would be 40 beds in a coach. A 2-1 upper deck would give 48 (but the ladder access might be too awkward, unless the top doubles were only sold as doubles to couples).

If lengthwise beds really aren't allowed, then I agree about the 4-bed couchette approach. If people are skeevy about sharing space with strangers these days, then don't put doors on then - just have "bays".
 

Meerkat

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14 Jul 2018
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7,521
I've heard the idea of "longitudinal bunks would be too dangerous in a crash" before... but then I've thought about the fact that there are coaches (I mean, the things on roads) that have longitudinal bunks

Road coaches only go at speed in one direction. The sleeper reverses direction during the night.
Safety not too bad if you crash feet first, but if the weight of your body is pushed through your head/neck you have a problem.
 
Joined
7 Aug 2011
Messages
245
First run for me on the new stock, in the seats as current prices now make berths a rare treat.
Worst night's sleep I've ever had on the service. I know temperature is subjective but I was cold throughout - the a/c blowing a cold draft both at leg and torso level. I'd recommend taking a blanket, I certainly will be in the future.
As others have mentioned the lights aren't great, they were all on all night although the eye mask mitigates this.
Catering not good, unable to get anything (I only wanted a drink) served until around 90mins after departure - due to the lounge being so busy. Also unable to order a hot breakfast due to equipment problems.
That said, the staff seemed to have an excellent attitude, and were frustrated by processes and resources. With that attitude and a few tweaks to processes hopefully things can improve.
The seats themselves are fine (again subjective) and had I been warmer I'm sure I'd have slept reasonably well.

In summary I'd like more heat, a little less light and a slightly slicker catering service. Primarily more heat.
 

Chrism20

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27 Feb 2013
Messages
1,347
Looks like they have got the Fort William away only 6L from Waverley this morning which is certainly a step in the right direction.
 
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245
It's probably an improvement on the Mark 2s, where you frequently didn't get any heat, light or catering at all!

Disregarding the unreliability of the Mk2 in recent years I'd say the new seated coach is a step back. However, it's only a few minor improvements from being much better.

In any case when Mk2 seats have had no heat, light or catering recently I've often had a wonderful night's sleep a few feet further up the train!
 

Deafdoggie

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29 Sep 2016
Messages
3,079
While it's quite stylish, for instance, the lighting on the Riviera seated coach is brighter than on a Class 390, this is silly.

only if it’s on full. When we went at Easter, there were us (a group of 5) and two others in the seats. The lighting control was left unlocked so we could dim and brighten as we wished. It can go very dark indeed & just leave a handful of ‘spotlights’ on in the aisle.
 

Lee_Again

Member
Joined
29 Sep 2007
Messages
646
Location
Stevenage
Anybody know why there is an 87 (south end) with a 1/2 rake of Mk3/Mk2 sleepers at Ferns Park this morning?

Just curious...
 

captainbigun

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3 May 2009
Messages
977
There’s an 86 at Ferme Park, still, as logistics have not allowed its movement back to WB after an empties move last week.
 

yorkie

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Just a gentle reminder to please try to stay on topic ;)

As always if anyone wishes to post ideas/suggestions for service changes/improvements, these should be posted in the Speculative Ideas section.

This thread is very large and at risk of becoming unwieldy; if anyone would like to provide feedback and/or discuss potential ways in which we could improve things, please send me a conversation message or use the contact us form.

Thanks :)
 

route101

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Joined
16 May 2010
Messages
10,613
Re pods: when they're lying flat, they take at least as much space as a bunk. Obviously. And unlike a bunk, you can't stack them. Their only advantage over bunks is that they can convert into seats (which some bunk arrangements can do as well). That's important for airlines, who need people sitting up for takeoff and landing, but on a 1-night sleeper service it doesn't seem terribly vital.

So, we don't need things that convert to seats, we just want to get lots of beds in. As others have said, the minimum space for transverse bunks in UK loading gauge is probably not so different from normal sleeper cabins[1]. Lengthways, you could get a few more in with a single aisle (I don't know how many more; I don't imagine the difference is all that dramatic). Without working out the floorplan, I suspect that if you didn't stick to accessible aisle widths you could get a lot more in with two aisles and 1-1-1. There'd have to be provision of 1-1 in part of the train for those who needed the wider gap, and I imagine there could be all sorts of arguments around that, since the "accessible" provision would be unambiguously better.
I do wonder whether a 2-2 arrangement could be made to work at the lower level, with a screen to make them not-double-beds. Not like in Megabus Gold where the person away from the aisle is trapped there unless they clamber over the person in the aisle - but more like an airline seat where there's enough room at the foot of the bed to slide out and walk around.

I've heard the idea of "longitudinal bunks would be too dangerous in a crash" before... but then I've thought about the fact that there are coaches (I mean, the things on roads) that have longitudinal bunks, and coaches are more likely to crash than trains and inflict much higher g-forces on their occupants when they do. Possibly the rail authorities simply have higher safety standards, but one wonders whether they should be relaxed a little if that's what makes affordable sleeper services impossible.

The first Megabus sleeper was longitudinal beds 3 high . I remember being in the bottom one , was enclosed with a curtain.
 

route101

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16 May 2010
Messages
10,613
Disregarding the unreliability of the Mk2 in recent years I'd say the new seated coach is a step back. However, it's only a few minor improvements from being much better.

In any case when Mk2 seats have had no heat, light or catering recently I've often had a wonderful night's sleep a few feet further up the train!

Last time in seated , a few people were sleeping on the floor and in the luggage bit in sleeping bags
 

Cloud Strife

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25 Feb 2014
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1,813
The Royal College of Anaesthetists seem to think this gassing business in motorhomes is a fairy story

I seem to remember that one trucking magazine tried to find any evidence of it happening, and they couldn't find one single confirmed case, with French doctors also holding the view that it was a myth. Yet plenty of truckers will swear blind that it happened.

I've read an academic study somewhere that found that a lot of 'druggings' are actually the result of a large amount of alcohol intake.
 

swaldman

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Joined
19 Jan 2013
Messages
375
Road coaches only go at speed in one direction. The sleeper reverses direction during the night.
Safety not too bad if you crash feet first, but if the weight of your body is pushed through your head/neck you have a problem.

Ah, fair point. In a car one has to worry about acceleration in either direction, but I guess a coach isn't going to have significant forward acceleration in a crash unless it's rammed from behind by a truck or another coach!
 

swaldman

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19 Jan 2013
Messages
375
The first Megabus sleeper was longitudinal beds 3 high . I remember being in the bottom one , was enclosed with a curtain.

Yes, I remember that one! Though IIRC they were too low to allow you to sit up in bed - which was OK, because they also carried enough seats for anybody who was awake. I think if 3-high was done on a train, it'd need a seated coach to go with it.
 

bastien

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14 Aug 2016
Messages
427
I seem to remember that one trucking magazine tried to find any evidence of it happening, and they couldn't find one single confirmed case, with French doctors also holding the view that it was a myth. Yet plenty of truckers will swear blind that it happened.

I've read an academic study somewhere that found that a lot of 'druggings' are actually the result of a large amount of alcohol intake.
I seem to remember that one trucking magazine tried to find any evidence of it happening, and they couldn't find one single confirmed case, with French doctors also holding the view that it was a myth. Yet plenty of truckers will swear blind that it happened.

I've read an academic study somewhere that found that a lot of 'druggings' are actually the result of a large amount of alcohol intake.
Yes, well, a trucker is hardly going to admit that they had their drink spiked, are they? Nor is someone making a travel insurance claim, if they have any nous.
 

ashkeba

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13 May 2019
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2,171
Yes, I remember that one! Though IIRC they were too low to allow you to sit up in bed - which was OK, because they also carried enough seats for anybody who was awake. I think if 3-high was done on a train, it'd need a seated coach to go with it.
Some sort of lounge? With some strapontins in the pod aisles for a few extras when everyonr is up.
 

glenbogle

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11 Aug 2011
Messages
223
Inverness to Euston tonight due to leave at 1935 and travel via Aberdeen and Dundee being delayed due to power outage in Inverness.

A signalling fault in Inverness has delayed boarding and departure of the Southbound Highlander service. We apologise to all affected guests, more information will follow as it becomes available..
 

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