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Pacer Trains: Politicians call for passenger compensation
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Snow1964
Established Member
I think there is some justification for this
Franchisee promises new trains before 2020
Fares and franchise payments are set based on improved quality
Improvement delayed
So suggestion should charge less until you finally deliver is not unreasonable
If any compensation (or discounts) are coming from manufacturers for late delivery and it is not being passed on to the customers (who are having to wait for improvements) then the Mayors are correct to demand fare cuts until it is sorted.
Franchisee promises new trains before 2020
Fares and franchise payments are set based on improved quality
Improvement delayed
So suggestion should charge less until you finally deliver is not unreasonable
If any compensation (or discounts) are coming from manufacturers for late delivery and it is not being passed on to the customers (who are having to wait for improvements) then the Mayors are correct to demand fare cuts until it is sorted.
Speaking as a Northern Rail passenger, I see where the politicians are coming from, however I don't think it's too helpful getting overly fixated on the stay of execution for pacers at this stage.
Yes, the political presseure needed to be there to get the Government to commit to their replacement, but now the new trains are on order, I think it would be better to campaign on the bigger picture issues of reliability and capacity, with a view ensuring that these continue to be addresses even after the pacer era
Yes, the political presseure needed to be there to get the Government to commit to their replacement, but now the new trains are on order, I think it would be better to campaign on the bigger picture issues of reliability and capacity, with a view ensuring that these continue to be addresses even after the pacer era
notlob.divad
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No it doesn't. If a pacer has run on a particular line at all during the day. Everyone who has travelled on that line gets a refund of 50% for their journey. That would focus a few minds to a) put the remaining pacers on the lowest utilised branch lines. (ie the ones that they were designed for in the first place). and b) get them out of service as soon as possible.
notlob.divad
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I do agree with this. After all, as soon as the pacers go, it will be the 150s that become the runt of the fleet. But there will no longer be the PRM deadline to 'focus' minds on their replacement. By focusing soley on the pacers, (and/or stripping northern of its franchise) it means once they do finally go the argument for futher improvements can be dismissed as moaning. Where actually what is really required is a consistent long term funding commitment to bring the infrastructure and rolling stock up to the same standards as seen across certain other areas of the country.
Indeed. I think that problem of too many two carriage trains needs to be next on the agenda.
Interesting article in press where Northern city politicians are asking for travellers to be compensated after 1/1/20 if a Pacer turns up, due to broken Northern promises.
Perhaps one way of achieving this would be through an adaptation of the Delay Repay refund system?
Perhaps one way of achieving this would be through an adaptation of the Delay Repay refund system?
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Overcrowding more generally, I'd say. That would be a better thing to compensate for than whether the train with a seat that shows up is of a particular type or not.
Maybe these politicians should try running the trains themselves, as the evidence available so far suggests they’re less informed on railway operations than the average passanger having a rant on Twitter etc.
Agent_Squash
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This. All that the Pacer compensation will do is make the problem worse for the next bottom train, i.e. the 15x. Boarding at Ulverston this morning, there were some sighs that there was a 156 instead of a 195!
Bantamzen
Established Member
You should really link the article, and if possible quote the text for this.
But without reading it, I'm going to say that this is a little bit of political gesturing from said politicians, and will not be something imposed nor would it be practicable. This is probably best filed under "Political Wibble"....
So compo? Who is going to pay it? Northern are stuck with them. Is it their fault their shiny new electric trains aren’t ready? That their 769s are not ready? That the massive electrification programme is late? All well and good saying give passengers money back, but let’s get the system working. If you ask the passengers, I’d be amazed if they didn’t say “let’s sort it first, then we look at recompense.”
It’s only now northern is starting to get close to the electrification of Blackpool Manchester and to free up units.
How does this help northern staff morale? How does this deliver a better service ? How does this actually benefit anyone? Or is just more cheap rabble rousing undeliverable rhetoric electioneering?
I used to have to use pacers when they were new. They were substandard then.... we thought the coming of 150s was the future. As for the 156s.... wonderful things. They had tables.....
It’s only now northern is starting to get close to the electrification of Blackpool Manchester and to free up units.
How does this help northern staff morale? How does this deliver a better service ? How does this actually benefit anyone? Or is just more cheap rabble rousing undeliverable rhetoric electioneering?
I used to have to use pacers when they were new. They were substandard then.... we thought the coming of 150s was the future. As for the 156s.... wonderful things. They had tables.....
Sleeperwaking
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^ A thousand times this ^
Iskra
Established Member
Free travel for everyone then since they are omnipresent.
The problems is the delays have cost Northern a lot in additional internal costs so there won't be much left after covering that.
The question is whether they would be taking taking just CAF to court or CAF + Eversholt or is Northern going after CAF and Everhsolt seperately and Eversholt after CAF as well at some point.
As a reminder 70% of the cost of running Northern services overall comes from DfT either directly or indirectly (DfT grant funding to NR for Northern routes etc.) so any compensation claim call won't go far!
If Burnham, Jarvis and Blake want more say in the running of Northern services why don't they offer to step in with funding so they have some skin in the game as it were?
If Burnham, Jarvis and Blake want more say in the running of Northern services why don't they offer to step in with funding so they have some skin in the game as it were?
I do wish that politicians would do some research before complaining about trains, new ones don't just magic out of the depots.
They have to be ordered years in advance and many delays can happen, from suppliers and delivery to driver training. And although off lease stock being brought into service gets rid of the construction delays there is still driver training and no dmus are off lease, if they were they would be taken up quickly. Sadly politicians don't understand this it seems...
On a side note I wonder if northern will take some of TPE's 185s as they are getting retired
They have to be ordered years in advance and many delays can happen, from suppliers and delivery to driver training. And although off lease stock being brought into service gets rid of the construction delays there is still driver training and no dmus are off lease, if they were they would be taken up quickly. Sadly politicians don't understand this it seems...
On a side note I wonder if northern will take some of TPE's 185s as they are getting retired
Brissle Girl
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Political grandstanding that is easy to do and will be popularly received. Though I think Northern is not helping itself given the slow pace of withdrawals (and publicity thereof) in contrast to the number of 195s now available for use.
eg, a post above mentioned 9 units now in use on the Chester to Leeds service, so what a great opportunity to say at the same launch event that 9 Pacers are being withdrawn concurrently. And if they aren't being withdrawn then I think the public/politicians are entitled to wonder why.
eg, a post above mentioned 9 units now in use on the Chester to Leeds service, so what a great opportunity to say at the same launch event that 9 Pacers are being withdrawn concurrently. And if they aren't being withdrawn then I think the public/politicians are entitled to wonder why.
swt_passenger
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In order to nip this in the bud Northern should just scrap their Pacers on Dec 31 and leave planned cancellations all over the service. It’s what the politicians obviously want...
Snow1964
Established Member
The BBC story has now been updated with an official comment by a Northern Spokesman
"This situation is not unique to Northern.
"From today we will have 29 of our 101 new trains in service for customers and a further 27 new trains are in final testing or being used for driver training.
"The introduction of new trains from July meant the first Pacer was retired in August, with the majority of Pacers still planned to be removed by the end of this year.
"We agree the North deserves the best possible rail service and are working hard to improve performance and reliability for customers."
In other words PR spin ignoring that they didn't get their act together early enough, and order trains that could actually be all in service before end of 2019
"This situation is not unique to Northern.
"From today we will have 29 of our 101 new trains in service for customers and a further 27 new trains are in final testing or being used for driver training.
"The introduction of new trains from July meant the first Pacer was retired in August, with the majority of Pacers still planned to be removed by the end of this year.
"We agree the North deserves the best possible rail service and are working hard to improve performance and reliability for customers."
In other words PR spin ignoring that they didn't get their act together early enough, and order trains that could actually be all in service before end of 2019
ExRes
Established Member
Was that not one line with one set of passengers?
This country is 'blessed' with probably the worst set of politicians since Parliament was opened, none of them are capable of anything but soundbites which they will, undoubtedly, forget all about if they gain some type of actual power
More important still, whether a train turns up at all.[Edit: see https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...seemingly-at-will.181450/page-15#post-4254624
I would rather that pacers were kept running (with suitable apologies) to provide capacity, but I really can't understand how Northern's record of cancellations goes unchallenged.
You only have to look at the threads and posts which talk about daily cancellations to wonder how they are getting away with it, and the extent of them on Sundays must wreck a lot of people's plans for a day out or getting home after a weekend away.
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