Walking through 1st to get to Standard

tom73 · 21 Oct 2019

I don't understand the fuss about simply walking through First Class. On boarding my very first Grand Central Trains service, at a Standard door, I realised that my reservation was in a coach some distance from where I had boarded. Train staff were actually instructing people to walk through First Class to get to their reserved seat with myself and a few others initially hesitant to enter the hallowed halls of First Class.

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Meerkat · 21 Oct 2019

sprunt said:
I don't think there's a reasonable expectation that first class will be any quieter than standard, otherwise they wouldn't have quiet carriages in first class.

Very much one of the reasons I would upgrade if travelling alone. Fewer people, and less chance of kids/babies, stags/hens, drinking football fans, chavs saying y’know/like down the phone, etc etc means it will be quieter and more relaxed.

nw1 · 21 Oct 2019

Surely they can't prevent you walking through first to get to standard though, in any circumstance?
e.g
- you need to walk through first to get to a standard with available seats
- you need to walk through first to get to the trolley (happened to me on Saturday,, I had no idea that there was anything wrong with *walking through* first class...)
- you need to walk through first to get to a suitable alighting point due to short platforms
- you need to walk through first to get to a toilet
- you need to walk through first to get to your friend, who joined at a different station in a different carriage

etc.

If first class passengers don't like it, why don't they feed back to the railway that they would prefer the 'classic' first class design of compartments with a corridor alongside?

Bletchleyite · 21 Oct 2019

Walking through is allowed if it is necessary to reach another part of the train, but you must not loiter nor use any of the facililties, which I think technically includes the toilets and absolutely does include not taking the freebies.

Walking through to alight merely to shorten the walk involves loitering (as if you only did it once the train had stopped it'd be easier to walk up the outside).

trainophile · 21 Oct 2019

I don't think the toilet one applies on TPE, as it is one of the only two toilets on a 3-coach 185, and its availability is included in the pre-departure announcements.

Bletchleyite · 21 Oct 2019

trainophile said:
I don't think the toilet one applies on TPE, as it is one of the only two toilets on a 3-coach 185, and its availability is included in the pre-departure announcements.

The toilet in TPE is not located in First Class, it is located in a rather silly little separate island of Standard. Passing through to reach this is fine.

trainophile · 21 Oct 2019

Bletchleyite said:
The toilet in TPE is not located in First Class, it is located in a rather silly little separate island of Standard. Passing through to reach this is fine.

Yes of course. That's the wheelchair and pram area I believe, although some people seem to choose it for preference - can't think why as the only seats are those tip-up straight backed ones.

Roast Veg · 21 Oct 2019

Bletchleyite said:
Walking through to alight merely to shorten the walk involves loitering (as if you only did it once the train had stopped it'd be easier to walk up the outside).

Not always true. On end door stock with composite carriages it can be much quicker to walk through than wait for some slow passengers in the standard vestibule. I commute on peak time 222s and the number of people who walk through the composite coach from standard to get closer to the stairs is fair.

Mogz · 21 Oct 2019

Another issue that side corridor compartments would help solve.

Like noisy children in Standard. Family compartments would contain them and muffle the noise (I speak as a parent to small children!)

6Gman · 21 Oct 2019

Mogz said:
Another issue that side corridor compartments would help solve.

Like noisy children in Standard. Family compartments would contain them and muffle the noise (I speak as a parent to small children!)

But it ain't going to happen:

Reduces capacity;
Security and safety.

py_megapixel · 22 Oct 2019

Bletchleyite said:
The toilet in TPE is not located in First Class, it is located in a rather silly little separate island of Standard. Passing through to reach this is fine.

Does the same apply to the wheelchair accessible toilet at the First end of a 9-car 80x then? It's identical to the Standard ones and you pass out of a "first class" door to use the toilet. In any case, it's unreasonable to force people travelling with a baby, for example, in the small section behind First Class, to walk through six carriages rather than just one to find baby changing, simply to avoid offending people who have paid for a more expensive ticket.

With regards to the yellow stripe, I think WM Trains has it on their 350s, and GWR stock also has it (I think).
First Great Western HSTs used to have it on a random selection of coaches, some of which were First and some Standard.

Bletchleyite · 22 Oct 2019

py_megapixel said:
Does the same apply to the wheelchair accessible toilet at the First end of a 9-car 80x then?

Is the entry door on that vehicle marked as First Class? If so, no, it is not available to Standard passengers. If not, then passing through is allowed.

sprunt · 22 Oct 2019

Bletchleyite said:
Is the entry door on that vehicle marked as First Class? If so, no, it is not available to Standard passengers. If not, then passing through is allowed.

If it's the only accessible toilet on the train that's surely totally unenforceable if the passenger in question needs an accessible toilet?

6Gman said:
But it ain't going to happen:

Reduces capacity;
Security and safety.

What are the security and safety issues with corridor/compartment stock? Given that they're still in use in (at least) Germany, I wouldn't have thought it was anything serious.

Bletchleyite · 22 Oct 2019

sprunt said:
If it's the only accessible toilet on the train that's surely totally unenforceable if the passenger in question needs an accessible toilet?

If it was, then yes, but on the 9-car 80x it isn't. If the other one was out of use the guard would effectively declassify.

If other suitable toilets are available, then it's part of First Class which is for First Class passengers only. Part of the less crowded atmosphere for which a First Class passenger has paid is not to have to wait as long for a wee.

They actually do enforce it on planes!

What are the security and safety issues with corridor/compartment stock? Given that they're still in use in (at least) Germany, I wouldn't have thought it was anything serious.

Personal safety rather than railway safety. They also make inefficient use of space.

py_megapixel · 22 Oct 2019

Bletchleyite said:
If it was, then yes, but on the 9-car 80x it isn't. If the other one was out of use the guard would effectively declassify.

But I would still argue that it's unreasonable to expect someone who needs an accessible toilet to walk through six carriages to allow first class passengers never to come into contact with standard.

Bletchleyite · 22 Oct 2019

py_megapixel said:
But I would still argue that it's unreasonable to expect someone who needs an accessible toilet to walk through six carriages to allow first class passengers never to come into contact with standard.

I would say they need to select their seat accordingly, then, asking someone to move from a priority seat near the Standard accessible toilet should this be necessary.

py_megapixel · 22 Oct 2019

Bletchleyite said:
I would say they need to select their seat accordingly, then, asking someone to move from a priority seat near the Standard accessible toilet should this be necessary.

I forgot about priority seats!
The only problem I can see is if they have to get on near First (e.g. from a platform which is too short, or where they cannot walk fast enough to get to the correct place before it leaves, although this has admittedly been improved with better information) and are unable to walk a long distance down a moving train.

Bletchleyite · 22 Oct 2019

py_megapixel said:
I forgot about priority seats!
The only problem I can see is if they have to get on near First (e.g. from a platform which is too short, or where they cannot walk fast enough to get to the correct place before it leaves, although this has admittedly been improved with better information) and are unable to walk a long distance down a moving train.

And when you get into niche situations the Guard has the discretion to make exceptions as he wishes.

However, for 95% + of people on the train, they should use the toilets in the class of travel they have paid for.

FWIW, it doesn't apply to the UK, but older DB coaches have nicer toilets in 1st - larger and in better condition

py_megapixel · 22 Oct 2019

Bletchleyite said:
However, for 95% + of people on the train, they should use the toilets in the class of travel they have paid for.

Indeed, I agree. (The only point I was trying to make is that there are cases in which exceptions would need to be made).

MK Tom · 22 Oct 2019

bionic said:
The layout on those units is crazy. They should just stick first at one end.

Even then, two or three units coupled together can still make a trip through 1st necessary to get to free seats or working toilets.

Fawkes Cat · 22 Oct 2019

MK Tom said:
Even then, two or three units coupled together can still make a trip through 1st necessary to get to free seats or working toilets.

I think we may all be forgetting what byelaw 19 actually says:

19. Classes of accommodation, reserved seats and sleeping berths
Except with permission from an authorised person, no person shall remain in
any seat, berth or any part of a train where a notice indicates that it is
reserved for a specified ticket holder or holders of tickets of a specific class,
except the holder of a valid ticket entitling him to be in that particular place.

(my bold)

There's nothing to stop anyone passing through a first class carriage: the offence is remaining there if you don't have a first class ticket.

So by all means walk through first class on your way to your standard seat or toilet: but don't hang around in the first class seats, aisle or vestibule - or a toilet specifically assigned to first class. And that includes lurking in the aisle or vestibule as the train pulls into the station.

sheff1 · 22 Oct 2019

I have often used the toilet in the first class carriage on XC when that is the nearest unoccupied one to where I am sat. I am still waiting to be charged by BTP for theft of first class water when washing my hands.

Ryans · 22 Oct 2019

I was on a Virgin pendolino heading south this morning in coach K. A lady boarded in coach K, walked to the open door to the staff kitchen and watched the train manager make an announcement. She was then acknowledged by a member of first class staff and queried where coach B was, a long walk I think!!

duffield · 22 Oct 2019

I don't think it's at all reasonable to expect disabled people like my late wife (stick, very bad knees, but not wheelchair) to walk any further than the very nearest toilet regardless of what class it is in.

And I say that in the context that my wife was not actually affected by this issue because of her 1st class priv travel (spouse). I'm thinking of people in her situation who are not fortunate enough to have/afford 1st class travel. To make people like her struggle through several coaches (possibly with people standing in the aisles etc.) to the toilet when one is available close by is just cruel and inhuman.

And in case the reply is 'well sit next to the standard class toilet', that is not always possible on crowded trains, or practical if you are disabled enough to find running along the platform to locate the relevant toilet impossible when boarding.

Bylaws and/or Ts&Cs should be amended so that any person with relevant disabilities should be able to use the nearest working toilet regardless of class.

Fawkes Cat · 22 Oct 2019

Is there any evidence of anyone being refused access to a toilet on a British train because of the class of their ticket?

duffield · 22 Oct 2019

Fawkes Cat said:
Is there any evidence of anyone being refused access to a toilet on a British train because of the class of their ticket?

I haven't seen any evidence of this, it's just that some posts are implying it should be enforced so I pointed out it wasn't appropriate in some cases.

Struner · 22 Oct 2019

Why does a toilet has a class assigned to it anyway?

trainophile · 22 Oct 2019

Softer bog roll?

Busaholic · 22 Oct 2019

Struner said:
Why does a toilet has a class assigned to it anyway?

Because we're a class obsessed society!

Mag_seven · 22 Oct 2019

Fawkes Cat said:
or a toilet specifically assigned to first class.

I don't believe there are any.

Walking through 1st to get to Standard

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