Is the cycle space always in the same place on Thameslink? I'd assume so (they only run 700s now, right?), in which case perhaps it would be a good idea for them to add some information to this page telling cyclists where the cycle space(s) is(are).
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Bikes on trains again (and other inconsiderate annoyances)
- Thread starter Bletchleyite
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Is the cycle space always in the same place on Thameslink? I'd assume so (they only run 700s now, right?), in which case perhaps it would be a good idea for them to add some information to this page telling cyclists where the cycle space(s) is(are).
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bramling
Veteran Member
I suspect you’re on to something that many such issues arise in more densely populated areas. Conflict isn’t at all unusual in London - look no further at the way people drive motor vehicles for a start, whilst meanwhile it’s not uncommon to see people having squabbles when there’s too many people waiting for a lift, or waiting to board a train.
This isn’t to say people are inherently nicer in other areas, just that there’s less scope for trouble to brew - not to say it doesn’t happen though.
bramling
Veteran Member
There’s a difference between the 8-car and 12-car units for a start, with some journeys having different length trains turn up from one service to the next (*). So I’d say to your average uninitiated punter the answer is a no.
*take Hitchin to Stevenage as an example, 4tph are 12-car whilst 2tph are 8-car - and if you’re heading north destination doesn’t always differentiate between the two. Then there’s the sole Brighton/Cambridge diagram booked for an 8-car whilst all the rest are 12-car. Add in that sometimes an 8-car can be substituted for a 12-car, and the fact you have 365s and 387s running around as well - especially at weekends - and it’s potentially quite a minefield for those who aren’t clued up on how it’s all organised.
JR have a decent system to let you know what's going to end up where for which train type. Each train has a type symbol associated with it:
and then on the platform, you find the same symbol:
This is where the doors will open, and any special facilities can be noted on the label or paint.
JR have a decent system to let you know what's going to end up where for which train type. Each train has a type symbol associated with it:
and then on the platform, you find the same symbol:
This is where the doors will open, and any special facilities can be noted on the label or paint.
believe GWR are trialing a similar system with their 800s, but apparently it struggles if the train is scheduled to do a reversal.
You'd think that'd be relatively easy to cope with (i.e. use a different symbol) but I am all too familiar with the joys of coping with legacy IT...
Very generalised and condemnatory statement. Is it really correct to make assumptions about 'the average cyclist'?
While agreeing with Bletchleyite that *in this case* and *in similar cases* the cyclists were being lazy and the behaviour of *these particular cyclists* was unacceptable, there is too much of the 'tar all cyclists with the same brush' attitude these days in this country. Doesn't help that in this country provision for cyclists (e.g. dedicated cycle ways) is terrible compared to much of the continent, for example the Netherlands and Germany. You're often forced to cycle along dangerous, busy roads or make lengthy diversions; the frequent sharing of cyclists and motorists of the same space can lead to mutual animosity between both groups, which would be much less if cyclists had more dedicated routes. Sadly we don't seem to adopt as much a pro-cycle culture as many other countries of Europe.
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Failed Unit
Established Member
I do find this a pain. You get people sitting on flip seats. You get on with your bike. They won’t move. (Why should they? Even if they have normal seats free) The bike is blocking the door. Even new stick like the 700s have this problem.
or as your photo shows baggage in the bike space gets met with “where else can I put it?”
I often need to leave the train with bike. Let passengers off and put it back in the doors. (Especially on the 153)
not used an Azuma with my bike yet. But speaking with the train crew they are not impressed. Apparently my bike will fit but some need their tyres letting down. On the plus side now the Azuma goes to Lincoln my fight with the 153 is over. I can just cycle instead.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Tip up seats are a stupid idea. They really should not be fitted at all. If the train's that busy the area is more use as standing space anyway. They are of use only in the occupancy range of <all seats taken> to <all tip-up seats taken too>.
If they weren't fitted, this situation with regard to bicycles would not occur i.e. where they're placed elsewhere because someone prefers to sit in that area.
If they weren't fitted, this situation with regard to bicycles would not occur i.e. where they're placed elsewhere because someone prefers to sit in that area.
Failed Unit
Established Member
The shared footpath/ cycleway causes similar conflicts. I prefer to be on the road. Shared paths are fine if you going 10mph or less but it isn’t fair going past other users of the path any faster. Some motorists complain saying that you should be on the path, not actually understanding they are the congestion not the bike.
Failed Unit
Established Member
Absolutely agree. They were a trend by BR in the 1990s. I remember the mk4s and 158s had then in the vestibule. Which caused obstruction of the doors. Taken out of the mk4s ages ago. Not sure if any of the 158s have them.
I could see the logic on the sprinters, mk3 EMUs such as the 317 when bikes were banned in the peak it is another 5 seats. But off peak it caused unnecessary conflicts.
Terry Tait
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In the 90s I was using a bike and the train everyday for commuting, never a problem because the train was a VEP / CIG / CEP so had proper brake van accommodation for bikes and any other large items that couldn't be put in the passenger area.
ashkeba
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It depends how wide the shared thing is and how busy it is. Passing wide or slowing sometimes is not a problem but if it is busy or narrow, it is a problem. In other countries, busy footpaths and cycleways are split and markings and colours and steps are used to discourage people using the wrong ones, but that does not seem to work in the UK in many places and people will walk on the bit with bike symbols and even more will if the footpath is paving and the cycleway smooth tarmac.
But at least roads makers try with the blue colours on London roads and things like that. On the train, if you are lucky, there is a tiny bicycle symbol somewhere that you can point at, but sometimes nothing. I think only Thameslink new trains have a big bicycle symbol to try. I guess LNR had no symbol in the carriage that Bletchleyite was in to tell people there was a bike space (even a crap one like it sounds) in another carriage, because they may have thought Bletchleyite was another of those jokers trying to make them get off the train and miss it while looking for a non-existing bike sign.
Some motorists say that whether the path is shared or not. They just want no one else on the road. They would complain at other motorists except they have their head in a metal box with a noisy engine and cannot hear them.
Failed Unit
Established Member
I remember the sprinters used to have a blue line above the “parcels” area. It worked once you knew what it meant. It disappeared with regional railways. I am sure some areas of NSE had P on the train.
I miss the coloured lines on trains. I know on some routes first is normally at the London end, but the yellow / red stripes are useful.
I miss the coloured lines on trains. I know on some routes first is normally at the London end, but the yellow / red stripes are useful.
A Challenge
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It would help if the signage at both ends of the section was consistent as well, I sometimes don't use a section because if this, the road is much more obvious where you are meant to be!
On a 153 if a bike is obstructing movement to the doors or down the aisle it should not be on the train. You have a very unusual situation for the UK where you are on a rail vehicle with no internal escape route in the event of fire and disentangling a bicycle through the small end doors can take precious seconds if you need to get out.
There's no grey line for me on those - if it won't fit in the space provided without obstructing the gang way or emergency cupboard (which also opens outwards) then it doesn't travel.
The luggage area and the bike area are rubbish for everyone but I certainly am not going to refuse between 6 and 10 suitcase owners travel on the grounds that one or two cyclists may want the space that they haven't paid any extra for.
Happily this disgraceful era in Lincolnshire's rail history will soon be over with the withdrawal of solo 153s. December is promised.
Failed Unit
Established Member
To be honest I have being surprised I have got let on a few times and would have ridden if I was refused. It is bad in Lincolnshire you can’t book bikes. So if the train turns up full tough. But are you entitled to delay repay for missing your mainline connection? I tended to avoid trains such as the 09xx Grimsby - Newark for just that reason. it has amazed me how many times you have 3 bikes on a single 153. Some guards flip up the wheelchair seats at the other end.
as you say they are going.
do passengers pay more for those large suitcases
.
as you say they are going.
do passengers pay more for those large suitcases
.Whist I agree that this is a problem the solution certainly should not be the banking of cycles, the solution should be the provision of more rolling stock.
This isn't just the case for 1 coach trains, but even when trains are full length (10/11/12 coaches). However in that case it would be the building of new infrastructure to provide the capacity. As an example Crossrail 2 should already be being built, if not at the stage that the Elizabeth line is at now, whilst that should have been running for 5 years and Thameslink 2000 should have only been 5-10 years late, not nearly 20.
paddington
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I find the tip-up seats useful when travelling with bulky luggage (and babies) that I'd rather not let out of my sight.
In Germany last week this caused a conflict of interest between me and three cyclists who boarded after me - they ended up blocking the door until a conductor told them to move.
In Germany last week this caused a conflict of interest between me and three cyclists who boarded after me - they ended up blocking the door until a conductor told them to move.
I have a Brompton and I've never heard that one. Just like folding push-chair, many passengers ( particularly bus) just can't be bothered to fold their vehicles up. Maybe if the Brompton passenger has taken the trouble to travel at a time where full sized bikes are permitted, they feel that they are entitled to treat their machine as a full-sized bicycle.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
There is almost no scenario on the railway in which you will need to get out in "precious seconds". Indeed, people doing that without thought have often got themselves killed.
Bikes should not be blocking access to the doors, at least, in a way that would not easily be chucked out of the doors if necessary, but that's more for passenger convenience than any likely need to get out in "seconds".
I as someone trained and working as a guard on single class 153 units for some years will obviously have to bow to your experience of the rather unusual considerations involved in being in charge of one.
ashkeba
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Conductor should have told you to move, especially if it was IC where bikes pay and bulky luggage doesn't.
I entirely agree with you. Hence my description of the situation as disgraceful. There's little more embarrassing than having to stand and tell people who've paid good money that they can't fit on a 153.
Failed Unit
Established Member
You do work at the TOC with the worse stock problems in the UK. Where their choice is which route do we leave the most passengers behind? December can’t come soon enough. I wonder if we will see some growth even before the new timetable. I know it is off topic but if you have to leave passengers behind at rural stations like Market Rasen do you try and get passengers with connections on first or do they just get 2 hour+ delay repay? I think the booking engines do some kind of counting as frequently you can buy APs on the 1003 Market Rasen - Newark (heading further south) but you can split at Newark.
DarloRich
Veteran Member
nah. Cockneys get all upitty about the smallest thing and don't know how to behave
I suspect you are right. The numbers, distance and length of journey involved mean any failure in the process/system of getting to and from work leads to massive meltdowns. The extinction rebellion people found that out the hard way.
bramling
Veteran Member
I've certainly heard it. In fact, it may well even be in the handbook (not 100% sure on the latter though).
I agree, apart from a handful of exceptions in my local area. The problem with so called cycle facilities is they are too narrow, engineers seem to think bicycles have infinitesimally small width, and on shared use paths, there often isn't the space to overtake pedestrians whilst giving them adequate clearance, so you end up stuck behind them until they voluntarily move across to allow you past (rather like motorists get stuck behind cyclists on narrow roads until the cyclist can safely pull into the side). In the case of dog walkers, they are like gas in that they fill every space they are put into, so it is impossible to overtake them, and I will stay on the road if the short cut bridleway I use to get home has a dog walker using it.
I don't think it is and I've just skimmed through the Owners Manual looking for it.
I'll check when I get back to old Blighty.
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