Would you consider the pre-MMC Enviros to be 'iconic' in the bus industry?

J-2739 · 18 Oct 2019

pdq said:
One of the definitions of icon is a 'representative image'. On that basic, an iconic vehicle is one that has been represented in artwork, maybe for advertising or suchlike. So the Routemaster is clearly there. I would argue that the original Wright double decker (sorry, I don't follow bus models much) counts as well, as it was used on a lot of LT publicity. A chassis/platform such as the B10M cannot really be classed as iconic since an image of a chassis would not represent the genre.
On that basis, how about Duple Dominant or Plaxton Paramount as iconic British coaches?

If you use that definition, then you could call the e200/400 iconic, since in Wakefield, you can find graffiti art of the bus, both inside and out of the main bus station.

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cnjb8 · 19 Oct 2019

F Great Eastern said:
What do you base that on, out of curiousity.

They're actually very uncommon in Suffolk, Ipswich doesn't have any, despite being a county town, two decent sized bus operators and an array of independents.

I believe Ipswich Red has them.
Suffolk is just one example. I chose my words poorly actually, I meant maximum 50%.
But even still, their are many: pretty much every Arriva, Stagecoach and First operation does along with most Rotala and GoAhead operations. That's a large chunk of the UK covered without mentioning CT Plus, Nottingham, Reading, Transdev and the many small operations that have them.

F Great Eastern · 19 Oct 2019

cnjb8 said:
I believe Ipswich Red has them.
Suffolk is just one example. I chose my words poorly actually, I meant maximum 50%.
But even still, their are many: pretty much every Arriva, Stagecoach and First operation does along with most Rotala and GoAhead operations. That's a large chunk of the UK covered without mentioning CT Plus, Nottingham, Reading, Transdev and the many small operations that have them.

Sorry. Thought you was referring to the double Deckers not the Enviro range in general.

Both First and Ipswich Buses have the Enviro 200, First have the Enviro 300 as well

cnjb8 · 19 Oct 2019

F Great Eastern said:
Sorry. Thought you was referring to the double Deckers not the Enviro range in general.

Both First and Ipswich Buses have the Enviro 200, First have the Enviro 300 as well

Ah right

Driver362 · 20 Oct 2019

GusB said:
The only British buses that can truly be held up as "iconic" are probably the RT and RM, considering their association with London and all things British. Didn't they ship a few Lodekkas abroad, paint them red and use them for tours in various places? Who cares as long as it's not the real thing as long as it's a half-cab double-decker with a rear platform entrance? Actually I'd probably say that the Lodekka in its various forms is probably iconic too, as it represented not-London in fairly large numbers.

I personally don't see the E400 as being iconic, but then I'm stuck in the past and anything beyond 1986 is modern rubbish! Maybe it's too soon for such a modern vehicle to be considered a design classic. The same goes for the Wright's Millennium range mentioned in Jordan's post above. I suppose they were striking designs compared to what went before. The ALX400 to me seems more like a development of the R-type (and brief Royale successor). Slightly modified front end, and designed for low-floor chassis. I liked its "retro" look, but I wouldn't say it was iconic.

A few personal "icons":
- Alexander AL. Build on Atlantean and Fleetline chassis, they were the standard bus for three of the Scottish municipal fleets (Glasgow, Edinburgh, Aberdeen), and fairly short-lived in the fourth (Dundee), as well as a few fleets south of the border (Tyne & Wear and Portsmouth? spring to mind).
- Alexander AY/AYS - the archetypal Scottish single-decker, also found in a few English fleets
- NCME's double-deck bodywork as found on Manchester's fleet on numerous different chassis
- The ECW/Olympian combination. Probably not so much iconic as ubiquitous.

To address a few others mentioned above:
- Dennis Drat. I hated them with a passion, but yes they probably do have their place in history. Lightweight, small rear engine, 40-ish seating capacity. Oh, wait - the Albion Viking did that too, back in its day (I'll see your poxy Allison automatic and raise you a 6-speed crash box!)
- Optare Solo. This shouldn't be mentioned without talking about the MCW/Optare Metrorider that went before. The Metrorider was a purpose-built minibus while everything else was a van conversion - Transits, Mercs and (is it possible for buttocks to have memory?) the Dodgy S56s. The Solo was the logical successor to the Metrorider, and when they replaced the 709Ds on my local route it was a major improvement.
- Optare Spectra. Is it a Metrobus MkX, or isn't it? When I first saw it in Buses magazine in Reading Buses livery I thought it was stunning.

It's all very subjective, and there are so many "icons" that I could come up with. There is one that hasn't had a mention so far: the Volvo B10M. Bus, coach, single-deck, double-deck - it was up for the job.

Must admit I quite liked the plaxton bodied darts we had .a well set up one wasn't that bad to drive .although braking distances had to be kept realistic .The most annoying thing I found with them was its inability to hold 25mph in built up areas as it didn't know what gear to be in up down ,up down

Mikey C · 21 Oct 2019

To answer the original question, no

Perfectly decent buses, but just an incremental change on what went before them (the Dart and Tridents).

mbonwick · 21 Oct 2019

TheGrandWazoo said:
Yes, it was developed from the Dart but with some major changes and, of course, we had e200 on an MAN chassis! And the e200 was also developed whilst the Dart remained in production. The Dart name was only added after Dart production ceased though it's fair to say it (the e200 Dart) does owe a lot to it's predecessor.

The 'Dart' tag was added to the second generation E200, to highlight that it was a development of the Dart, and minimise the reference to the awful, mostly unrelated, first generation E200 (the one with the vertical engine layout and completely low floor).

Mikey C · 21 Oct 2019

mbonwick said:
The 'Dart' tag was added to the second generation E200, to highlight that it was a development of the Dart, and minimise the reference to the awful, mostly unrelated, first generation E200 (the one with the vertical engine layout and completely low floor).

That first version of the E200 launched by Transbus could have been iconic, as it was genuinely radical for the UK market. Instead they rowed back and gave us an improved Dart!

TheGrandWazoo · 21 Oct 2019

mbonwick said:
The 'Dart' tag was added to the second generation E200, to highlight that it was a development of the Dart, and minimise the reference to the awful, mostly unrelated, first generation E200 (the one with the vertical engine layout and completely low floor).

Yeah, I should have been clearer. It owes a lot to it’s predecessor (the Dart) and less to the other predecessor (e200).

Anyhow, the Dart was genuinely pivotal in how it shaped the bus industry, as was the Solo. The RM is synonymous with London (and by extension to many non Brits, the U.K.).

The enviros - cheap, dependable, plentiful but unremarkable. Not wishing to be ageist, but I made the point before.

I don’t know how the OP is? IF , for instance, they’re 18 or 20 years of age and Enviros have been around for most of your waking life, then they may seem iconic.

If you’re sadly a bit older and more grizzled, you simply have a greater wealth of experience to compare to (and I’m not being disparaging).

Mikey C · 21 Oct 2019

TheGrandWazoo said:
Yeah, I should have been clearer. It owes a lot to it’s predecessor (the Dart) and less to the other predecessor (e200).

Anyhow, the Dart was genuinely pivotal in how it shaped the bus industry, as was the Solo. The RM is synonymous with London (and by extension to many non Brits, the U.K.).

The enviros - cheap, dependable, plentiful but unremarkable. Not wishing to be ageist, but I made the point before.

I don’t know how the OP is? IF , for instance, they’re 18 or 20 years of age and Enviros have been around for most of your waking life, then they may seem iconic.

If you’re sadly a bit older and more grizzled, you simply have a greater wealth of experience to compare to (and I’m not being disparaging).

I think the very first Dart, especially with the Duple body was pretty iconic, and a massively influential vehicle for the next 30 years really

MotCO · 21 Oct 2019

GusB said:
Might I also add our home-grown Duple 425 to the list, or is that one a bit too marmite?

.

No, I agree the Duple 425 was eye-catching. I also liked the Duple 320. But iconic? Nah!

Dare I suggest the Borismaster? It is iconic insofar that other buses took some of its styling designs - e.g.E400City. Also, the interior fittings (more coach-like than bus) were a game changer.

Mikey C · 21 Oct 2019

MotCO said:
No, I agree the Duple 425 was eye-catching. I also liked the Duple 320. But iconic? Nah!

Dare I suggest the Borismaster? It is iconic insofar that other buses took some of its styling designs - e.g.E400City. Also, the interior fittings (more coach-like than bus) were a game changer.

Agreed, especially since its originator became prime minister! No other bus is as associated with a major public figure.

Tetchytyke · 22 Oct 2019

MotCO said:
Dare I suggest the Borismaster?

Nope, it's a Disneyland RM.

ChrisPJ · 23 Oct 2019

MotCO said:
Dare I suggest the Borismaster? It is iconic insofar that other buses took some of its styling designs - e.g.E400City. Also, the interior fittings (more coach-like than bus) were a game changer.

The Borismaster isn't iconic, it's contrived. Unduly influenced by those who wish they could go back to 1968 before all those horrible modern buses without a rear door were universal.

The glazed staircase is about the only feature of note that has been adopted elsewhere (and then in a limited fashion). I'm glad London's gone back to ordering more conventional buses even if Boris made some political capital out of accusing his successor of helping cause Wrightbus to fail.

Would you consider the pre-MMC Enviros to be 'iconic' in the bus industry?

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