Regions of British Railways

XCTurbostar · 21 Oct 2019

Hi Guys,

Bit of historical question for you.
From 1948 onwards, BR was split into regions e.g. scottish region, western region.

Question: What were the rolling stock letter codes for all six regions e.g. W, E? Were there any other regions which were created later on in the run up to sectorisation? If so, were these given letters too?

Thanks for your answers.

RailUK Forums

dk1 · 21 Oct 2019

E, M, S, SR & W from what I remember off the top of my head.

edwin_m · 21 Oct 2019

Eastern: E
London Midland: M
North Eastern: NE (later merged into Eastern)
Scottish: SC
Southern: S
Western: W

There was a Great Eastern (GE) for a while, not sure when. An Anglia was created in the 1980s covering a simialr area, but I think by that time the prefixes had been dropped.

Rail Ranger · 21 Oct 2019

Western: W
Eastern: E
North Eastern: NE
Southern: S
London Midland: M
Scottish: SC
North Eastern was merged into Eastern in the mid-1960s. Anglia Region was created in the 1980s (I think).

keith1879 · 21 Oct 2019

Also ....North Eastern just used E at first (certainly for DMU stock). the split between E and NE was relatively short-lived.

robertclark125 · 21 Oct 2019

Anglia Region was created in April 1988.

6Gman · 21 Oct 2019

edwin_m said:
Eastern: E
London Midland: M
North Eastern: NE (later merged into Eastern)
Scottish: SC
Southern: S
Western: W

There was a Great Eastern (GE) for a while, not sure when. An Anglia was created in the 1980s covering a simialr area, but I think by that time the prefixes had been dropped.

I can certainly remember GE as a prefix - 1960s?

Freight stock was different. B for BR stock, W for ex-GW, M for ex-LMS etc Any of which could be preceded by D for Departmental, so you could get DB, DW, DS etc

Oh, and pre-BR coaching stock had suffixes. So M9137E would be a vehicle of LNER design now operated by LMR.

edwin_m · 21 Oct 2019

6Gman said:
Oh, and pre-BR coaching stock had suffixes. So M9137E would be a vehicle of LNER design now operated by LMR.

Indeed. I assume the suffixes were because they continued the pre-nationalization number series so there might have been two vehicles with the same number if it clashed with one of the other companies or the new BR series. As always with BR there were exceptions, notably the Hadfield units that were of LNER design but carried M suffixes for many years.

52290 · 22 Oct 2019

6Gman said:
I can certainly remember GE as a prefix - 1960s?

Freight stock was different. B for BR stock, W for ex-GW, M for ex-LMS etc Any of which could be preceded by D for Departmental, so you could get DB, DW, DS etc

Oh, and pre-BR coaching stock had suffixes. So M9137E would be a vehicle of LNER design now operated by LMR.

Another prefix used on freight stock in the 1950's was P for privately owned wagons.

XCTurbostar · 22 Oct 2019

Many thanks for your answers guys!

edwin_m · 22 Oct 2019

52290 said:
Another prefix used on freight stock in the 1950's was P for privately owned wagons.

Was that wagons still under private ownership, or those formerly private owner now part of the BR fleet? IIRC the PO coal wagons were pooled at the start of WW2 and ultimately ended up in BR ownership but I can't remember whether they were officially owned by the companies or still with the private owners between 1939 and 1948.

coppercapped · 22 Oct 2019

edwin_m said:
Was that wagons still under private ownership, or those formerly private owner now part of the BR fleet? IIRC the PO coal wagons were pooled at the start of WW2 and ultimately ended up in BR ownership but I can't remember whether they were officially owned by the companies or still with the private owners between 1939 and 1948.

Paragraph 29 of Part II of the 1947 Transport Act has this to say:

29. Where, immediately before the date of transfer, any privately owned railway wagon is under requisition by virtue of an exercise of the powers in that behalf conferred by Regulation 53 of the Defence (General) Regulations, 1939—
(a) the property in that wagon shall vest in the Commission on the date of transfer, free of any mortgage or other like encumbrance, and the requisition shall then cease; and
(b) the Crown shall not be liable for any compensation under the Compensation (Defence) Act, 1939, or otherwise in respect of any damage to the wagon occurring during the period of requisition.

30.—(1) Where under the last preceding section the property in any wago vests in the Commission, the Commission shall, subject to the three next succeeding subsections, pay as compensation in respect thereof an amount determined, by reference to the type of wagon and the the year in which the wagon was first built, in accordance with the Table set out in the Sixth Schedule to this Act.
(2) Where—
(a) a wagon, not being a 21-ton hopper wagon, was built after the year nineteen hundred and forty six; or
(b) a wagon, being a 21-ton hopper wagon, was built after the year nineteen hundred and forty four; or
(c) the Minister is satisfied that a wagon is of a special type not mentioned in the said Sixth Schedule,
the amount payable as compensation in respect thereof shall be determined by the Minister, and...

etc., etc.,

So it looks to me as if most, if not all, of the wagon parc was requisitioned during the war but the ownership remained with the original owners - which as the Act states later - may have been a hire purchase company! The Act vested the ownership of all these wagon in the British Transport Commission but paid compensation to the owners according to the terms of the Act.

Taunton · 22 Oct 2019

I think that GE was used only on Liverpool Street electric stock, and not even all of that, the dmus and hauled stock was just E. Likewise in the North Eastern Region NE was used on dmus for a while, but not on hauled vehicles.

All the stock on Anglo-Scottish services was M or E, although a lot was maintained in Scotland, where SC was only used for internal vehicles, which were always kept separated and rarely got beyond Carlisle.

We had a discussion about the private owner wagons taken into BR in 1948 a while back.

The suffixes were for pre-nationalisation designed stock, or to be more precise those vehicles numbered in the relevant pre-nationalisation series, because there was a lot of stock built into the 1950s which was so numbered, including most of the later survivors, and some of the designs were actually new, but to old principles. I wonder what the newest such stock was. The Wirral 1956 emus must be contenders.

etr221 · 22 Oct 2019

edwin_m said:
Was that wagons still under private ownership, or those formerly private owner now part of the BR fleet? IIRC the PO coal wagons were pooled at the start of WW2 and ultimately ended up in BR ownership but I can't remember whether they were officially owned by the companies or still with the private owners between 1939 and 1948.

coppercapped said:
So it looks to me as if most, if not all, of the wagon parc was requisitioned during the war but the ownership remained with the original owners - which as the Act states later - may have been a hire purchase company! The Act vested the ownership of all these wagon in the British Transport Commission but paid compensation to the owners according to the terms of the Act.

My understanding was that only fairly standard wagons - that could be usefully included in the 'common user' wagon pool(s) for more efficient working - such as the 'normal PO coal wagons' were requisitioned by, and came under the control of, the Ministry of (War) Transport, who also bought new wagons (including the first examples of the once ubiquitous 16ton mineral), and it was these that in 1948 went to the BTC/BR, and (except for some of the more modern ones which received B prefix numbers) were renumbered in the P series. Quite how wagons were controlled during (and after) the war, when the railways were to a large extent under state control, I don't know.

More specialist vehicles, that could not come in to the 'common use' pools, were not requisitioned, and remained private owner in 1948.

My understanding is that a long standing subject of discussion within railway management was over the relative merits of private and railway ownership of wagons ... and I'm not sure it has yet concluded.

Taunton · 22 Oct 2019

Good article on BR and predecessors wagon development here

https://www.igg.org.uk/rail/4-rstock/04arstock5.htm

Ianigsy · 22 Oct 2019

I have a feeling that GE was probably unique to what became the Class 309s.

I can remember the Class 502s and 503s running with M suffixes- interestingly the LNER design Class 506s also had them but should have been numbered MxxxxxE.

etr221 · 22 Oct 2019

Ianigsy said:
I can remember the Class 502s and 503s running with M suffixes- interestingly the LNER design Class 506s also had them but should have been numbered MxxxxxE.

According to RCTS Locomotives of the LNER Part 10B, which covers them they (the 506s) originally had E prefixed numbers (no suffix); in the late 1950s an E suffix was added; in 1958 they (and their line) transferred to the LMR, and the prefix was changed to M; and later 'for some reason' (maybe someone not understanding the system) the suffix was also changed to M.

The book also states that the class 306 vehicles never bore suffixes to their numbers; and also that in the early 1960s (when Line management was at its height) they had GE (rather than just E) prefixes, 'in common with hauled stock' (from 1961-64, according to Parkin's HMRS book on Mark 1 coaches)

delt1c · 23 Oct 2019

Could never understand why the Eastern Region was initially 3 regions ( NE, GE and E), yet the Midland was always one and was much larger.

30907 · 23 Oct 2019

delt1c said:
Could never understand why the Eastern Region was initially 3 regions ( NE, GE and E), yet the Midland was always one and was much larger.

It wasn't. There was a restructuring, around 1960 IIRC and the GE and GN became Lines (the GC had gone to the LMR).
My guess is that the E and NE combined had more traffic than the original LMR, but happy to be disproved.

Taunton · 23 Oct 2019

delt1c said:
Could never understand why the Eastern Region was initially 3 regions ( NE, GE and E), yet the Midland was always one and was much larger.

I think it was based on the managerial structures then in place in 1948, which were broadly continued. The LMS was more centralised, based at Euston. The LNER was significantly divided (I think they were called "Areas") into South, North and Scotland, with management offices split between Kings Cross and York. GE was never a Region, but did have a relatively independent management based at Liverpool Street. Gerry Fiennes' books refer.

etr221 · 23 Oct 2019

30907 said:
It wasn't. There was a restructuring, around 1960 IIRC and the GE and GN became Lines (the GC had gone to the LMR).

Under the Line management structure of the early sixties, the ER was actually divided into three - the third (after GN and GE) was the LTS (although I don't recall what its official name was). And I don't think pre-grouping ownership was a reliable guide as to the division between them.

I think that the LMR had a similar (though lower profile) division into Western, Central and Midland divisions (if I remember the terminology correctly), of LMS origin for essentially ex LNW, L&Y and Midland lines respectively.

I think it is a fair comment that from 1948 on, British Railways (both as part off the BTC and later) struggled to work out how - as a very large organisation - it organise itself managerially, without ever getting to a definitive answer: even the sectors at the end were perhaps but a precursor to the next reorganisation which but for privatisation would have come along. And Railtrack/Network Rail are continuing the tradition...

Revaulx · 23 Oct 2019

Taunton said:
I think it was based on the managerial structures then in place in 1948, which were broadly continued. The LMS was more centralised, based at Euston. The LNER was significantly divided (I think they were called "Areas") into South, North and Scotland, with management offices split between Kings Cross and York. GE was never a Region, but did have a relatively independent management based at Liverpool Street. Gerry Fiennes' books refer.

The early years of the LMS were characterised by ex LNW and Midland factions jockeying for control. Lord Stamp put a stop to this by establishing an all-powerful Head Office. The LNE constituents were used to collaborating so didn't require such centralised control.

edwin_m · 24 Oct 2019

Revaulx said:
The early years of the LMS were characterised by ex LNW and Midland factions jockeying for control. Lord Stamp put a stop to this by establishing an all-powerful Head Office. The LNE constituents were used to collaborating so didn't require such centralised control.

I guess the GNR, GER, NER and NBR didn't overlap much and the GCR was less important. Whereas the biggest contributors to the LMS were the LNWR and the Midland, moreorless competitors before the Grouping.

Taunton · 24 Oct 2019

It is true, the Midland had a long tradition of competing with everybody, not just the LNWR but others as well - they competed against the GWR for London to Bristol freight traffic, routed via Leicester and Birmingham, or against both GE and GN for London to Cambridge freight, routed via Kettering. Freight was generally more important revenue than passenger in those times. I've seen described in other transport industry mergers that there are two fundamental merger types, "end to end" and "side by side", the first being easier than the second. The LNER on the ECML was obviously end to end, whereas the LMS with both companies doing London to Manchester or Carlisle, Birmingham to Carlisle, etc, was side by side.

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