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Why doesn't Northern's Windermere service stop at Lancaster?

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CaptainHaddock

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Sorry if the question's been asked before but a search yielded no results.

I had a trip up to Windermere last week on a Northern Only comp ticket and was surprised and disappointed that on both legs the train didn't call at Lancaster. Obviously Lancaster is a major city on the route and a useful place to change to other services so it seems daft to miss it out. Any ideas why this is?
 
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Bletchleyite

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Pathing issues relating to the use of 75mph stock due to late delivery of 195s. Now the 195s have arrived I suspect this will get fixed at the next timetable change.
 

The Bear

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Sorry if the question's been asked before but a search yielded no results.

I had a trip up to Windermere last week on a Northern Only comp ticket and was surprised and disappointed that on both legs the train didn't call at Lancaster. Obviously Lancaster is a major city on the route and a useful place to change to other services so it seems daft to miss it out. Any ideas why this is?

Pathing issues relating to the use of 75mph stock due to late delivery of 195s. Now the 195s have arrived I suspect this will get fixed at the next timetable change.

It's all about keeping out of the way of Pendo's and 350s.
The through services on/off the Windermere Branch are timed using a 90mph/class158 timing profile as 195s were going to be gradually introduced during the course of the current timetable but the through services are also timed at 90mph/class158 for the Dec2019 timetable as well. So it'll be May2020 at the earliest before the 195s 100mph capability can be exploited.
So the missing out of Lancaster and or the pathing stops (at various locations) will continue for the foreseeable.
 

Bletchleyite

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It's all about keeping out of the way of Pendo's and 350s.
The through services on/off the Windermere Branch are timed using a 90mph/class158 timing profile as 195s were going to be gradually introduced during the course of the current timetable but the through services are also timed at 90mph/class158 for the Dec2019 timetable as well. So it'll be May2020 at the earliest before the 195s 100mph capability can be exploited.
So the missing out of Lancaster and or the pathing stops (at various locations) will continue for the foreseeable.

They're actually timed as 75mph (Class 150/156), not 90mph.

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y67151/2019-10-21/detailed

But yes it appears this is the same in the Dec TT.
 

The Bear

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They're actually timed as 75mph (Class 150/156), not 90mph.

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y67151/2019-10-21/detailed

But yes it appears this is the same in the Dec TT.

Bletchleyite you're correct and incorrect.....

Not your fault but this is something which RTT isn't set up to show. The through services are timed using the 75mph/156 timing profile on the branch between Oxenholme & Windermere and the 90mph/158 timing profile Oxenholme southward on the mainline.

Example:
Compare that up service coming off the branch to this down service coming onto the branch;
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y61027/2019-10-21/detailed
It shows it as 90mph/158.

That trains return working from Windermere at the start of it's stint doing the shuttles is timed as 75mph/156;
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y61475/2019-10-21/detailed

RTT only shows what the timing profile is at the start of a schedule & not any changes mid-schedule.
Prior to 195 introduction on the Lakes Line the services were prioritised for 158s due problems pathing 75mph stock on the WCML.
 

LancasterRed

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There's one around 12pm from Preston that does stop - one of the better services to use and is always well-loaded. It uses Platform 4 to get around any issues, which was quite a surprise the first time I used it!

I was wondering if Platform 5 could be viable to hold it in temporarily? Although I suspect timetabling wouldn't allow that.
 

30907

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_toommm_

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Starmill

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The decision to remove the class 185 rolling stock from the route, which had been established on it for about a decade, and replace it with a motley collection of sprinters, often including a class 153, had some predictable negative impacts on the timetable. This should not come as a surprise to anybody.

Now that all 100mph rolling stock is returned, the timetable will hopefully be changed again to revise the issue. The December timetable, as published, does not seem to implement these changes. However, it is fortunate that there are four daily through services to Manchester Airport in spite of this, and one more to Preston.
 

Starmill

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Ah, thanks all, didn't know there was a loop there.
It was created recently when the branch platform was electrified, for the specific purpose of allowing a train to wait off the mainline while the unit coming from Windermere clears the branch. It also means that trains can now more readily turn back at Oxenholme (including electric ones) if necessary for some reason.
 

Mag_seven

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I don't know why they just don't run the Windermere branch as an all day "shuttle" between Oxenholme and Winderemere?
 

yorkie

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I stand corrected - thanks - didn't know it could do that!
I refuse to believe you've not read this post by D6700 about timing loads; I've linked to it enough times ;)
I'm not familiar with the inner workings of TPS, but each train will have two timing loads, one of which may be hidden from the user.

In Trainplan, which was used before TPS, both of these timing loads were visible to planners and could be independently altered if required.

The Trainplan Timing Load was used to calculate Sectional Running Times (SRT's) appropriate to the trains being planned. Additionally, there was a TSDB Timing Load, which was a much more simplified and limited value. It is the latter timing load that appears in the CIF.

A Trainplan Timing Load would automatically match to a TSDB Timing Load, but it was possible to subsequently alter the TSDB Timing Load to a different value. This was very useful if, for example, running trains over routes they don't normally work, where the relevant Trainplan Timing Load was not populated with SRT's. Other uses include changing traction type, if being replaced by something that can achieve the SRT's.

Not all tools in Train Planners' armoury are visible to end users, as they don't make it into the CIF. Three types of timing allowance are visible in TRUST and online systems - engineering, pathing and performance, but a fourth, adjustment allowance, isn't. This is a vital tool for planners, but is invisible to anybody without access to planning software. It is used to extend or reduce SRT's where required, such as differential speed junctions or when the timing load is not wholly appropriate to the train being timed. Despite what many people assume, timings are not held in the planning software for all trains over all routes. In fact, when it comes to charters and other one-off movements, it is highly unlikely that any SRT's exist in the software for that specific train. A train shown as timed to a maximum speed of 75mph or 95mph may not actually have been timed as such, that is just what the CIF outputs. Changes of Timing Load can also be made en-route.

I am pleased to see these officially approved open online systems, but do feel that many of the questions arising are simply due to people over-analysing things that don't really need to be analysed!

I hope this gives a better understanding of some of the issues raised in this thread and in some others.
 

The Bear

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There's one around 12pm from Preston that does stop - one of the better services to use and is always well-loaded. It uses Platform 4 to get around any issues, which was quite a surprise the first time I used it!

I was wondering if Platform 5 could be viable to hold it in temporarily? Although I suspect timetabling wouldn't allow that.

From memory it waits in plat4 as plat5 is used to turn back a Furness or Yorkshireman.

It sits in this signal block:
View attachment 69697
Although, the wait is normally longer than planned due to the service ex. Windermere often running late...

The usually cause of this delay is the Windermere-Manchester being held for late running Glasgow-Euston Pendo's.

The decision to remove the class 185 rolling stock from the route, which had been established on it for about a decade, and replace it with a motley collection of sprinters, often including a class 153, had some predictable negative impacts on the timetable. This should not come as a surprise to anybody.

Now that all 100mph rolling stock is returned, the timetable will hopefully be changed again to revise the issue. The December timetable, as published, does not seem to implement these changes. However, it is fortunate that there are four daily through services to Manchester Airport in spite of this, and one more to Preston.

The class185s were perfect tool for the job with large doors & vestibules, plenty of luggage space but more importantly had the power to cope with the fairly stiff gradients and frequent stops. The 195s are a close second but a class185 (on all 3 engines) have been about the only unit that can touch 60mph from a standing start on the 1-in-80 climb out of Kendal before having to shut off to approach Oxenholme.

The 156+153 combos ran the middle part of the day while the branch was down to only two through trains a day (I'm not counting the first & last services). The 156+153 covering the middle part of the day with a hired in 185 covering the morning & evening diagram.
Once all traincrew had refreshed on 153s they were a godsend to strengthen the 156s. Prior to this the 156s on some services were so full in some cases they were leaving passengers behind.
For a short period on Saturdays prior to 153s coming on stream one diagram was strengthened to 2x156 but this wasn't ideal as Staveley platform can only accommodate 3-coaches so special arrangements were inforce.
Once more through services were introduced the branch lost it dedicated 156+153 combo so the overcrowding returned.

It was created recently when the branch platform was electrified, for the specific purpose of allowing a train to wait off the mainline while the unit coming from Windermere clears the branch. It also means that trains can now more readily turn back at Oxenholme (including electric ones) if necessary for some reason.

In the timetable from Dec2019 (Mon-Fri) a TPE service from Liverpool is booked terminate in plat3 while the branch is occupied.


I don't know why they just don't run the Windermere branch as an all day "shuttle" between Oxenholme and Winderemere?

With TPE running an hourly service on the mainline I couldn't agree with you more.
Just like it use to be before privatisation when the units & crews came from Carlisle.....
 

Starmill

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There's certainly a significant demand for journeys to the Lake District from Manchester Airport and Greater Manchester in the summer. Significantly improved connections to the Lake District are also available by through running from Preston. People who live in Windermere and Kendal also gain quite a bit from the through services to Preston in terms of national connections.

The question therefore is, do these benefits outweigh the complications to the timetable caused by the through running? The other important question is one of capacity.
 

paddington

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Well the lack of stop at Lancaster led to me wasting 50 minutes this summer and sizeable compensation.

On my "rescue" journey to complete bashing the line, the 195 was between 5 to 10 minutes early at almost every station, which I believe was due to this 75mph timetabling thing.
 

CaptainHaddock

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Thanks for all the responses; as a former train planner myself I should have known it was related to timing loads!

I hope the Lancaster stop can be reintroduced in next summer's timetable change; it would open up a lot more leisure opportunities on the Northern-only £10 offer for passengers travelling from the Yorkshire area.
 

LancasterRed

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In the timetable from Dec2019 (Mon-Fri) a TPE service from Liverpool is booked terminate in plat3 while the branch is occupied.

Can't see this on RTT. Platform 3 certainly has the potential for this, which could be of use
 

30907

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Can't see this on RTT. Platform 3 certainly has the potential for this, which could be of use
It was certainly planned, but either has been pulled or hasn't been uploaded. Only the 3 LIV-Glasgows and v.v. show up for mid Jan.
 
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The Bear

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vlad

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On my "rescue" journey to complete bashing the line, the 195 was between 5 to 10 minutes early at almost every station, which I believe was due to this 75mph timetabling thing.

That does mean that it's possible for a late-running train to catch up time. My Manchester to Windermere train on Saturday was 10 minutes late on Chat Moss due to flooding but still got to Preston early.
 

aelius

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The Bear

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Will this be the first time that Platform 3 has had an electric train since it was electrified as the start of the aborted Windermere electrification?

They'll be 185s to start with but it won't be the first time an electric has been in plat3.
I can't remember the date (last year sometime I think) during disruption a TPE 350/4 got turned back in plat3.
 

Howardh

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Even though I find it very convenient to catch a train at WDM which is through to Bolton without change - I wouldn't object to WDM - Oxenholme being a simple shuttle. Might be a home for any left-over pacers :E
 
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