Contactless at Luton Parkway and more

Aictos · 15 Oct 2019

Been speaking to Thameslink at a Key roadshow and they have confirmed some items which may be of interest here:

1. Contactless will be available to use between London and Luton Airport Parkway in 2 weeks exactly - (their words)

2. Railcards will be available on Keygo by end of year.

3. When asked about Daily Travelcards on Key with Railcards, was told end of year.

RailUK Forums

Failed Unit · 15 Oct 2019

Aictos said:
Been speaking to Thameslink at a Key roadshow and they have confirmed some items which may be of interest here:

1. Contactless will be available to use between London and Luton Airport Parkway in 2 weeks exactly - (their words)

2. Railcards will be available on Keygo by end of year.

3. When asked about Daily Travelcards on Key with Railcards, was told end of year.

Are daily travel cards available on the normal keyGo. Whenever I have used it on tfl gates I get seek assistance and just use a normal credit card instead.

Aictos · 15 Oct 2019

Failed Unit said:
Are daily travel cards available on the normal keyGo. Whenever I have used it on tfl gates I get seek assistance and just use a normal credit card instead.

I don’t know, I did say how paper day travelcards keep getting rejected by their gatelines but not when using gatelines at the likes of London Underground, Greater Anglia etc...

They told me I can use season travelcards on Keygo but that’s not helpful when you actually need a daily travelcard.

Aictos · 15 Oct 2019

Just asked and those tickets loaded onto Keygo is only valid on GTR services HOWEVER it now seems possible to buy a standard daily travelcard from a station’s TVM and load it onto your Key.

Not sure just if railcards can be used for the latter but will see later.

Failed Unit · 16 Oct 2019

Aictos said:
Just asked and those tickets loaded onto Keygo is only valid on GTR services HOWEVER it now seems possible to buy a standard daily travelcard from a station’s TVM and load it onto your Key.

Not sure just if railcards can be used for the latter but will see later.

Thanks. I guess if you need to do that may as well continue getting the paper travel card. If it worked on KeyGo in a similar style to oyster that would be perfect, or even order in advance and tap to collect would be better. But if you need to queue at a TVM anyway may as well get paper.

Aictos · 16 Oct 2019

Failed Unit said:
Thanks. I guess if you need to do that may as well continue getting the paper travel card. If it worked on KeyGo in a similar style to oyster that would be perfect, or even order in advance and tap to collect would be better. But if you need to queue at a TVM anyway may as well get paper.

I agree, it would be easier and like I said above I did comment on the paper tickets having issues with their gatelines - part of their reply and I don't know how this is possible so will leave someone with better knowledge of ticket gates to explain but they also said that their gates wipe tickets which results in the errors.

The other thing as well that I brought up was some TVMs will not retail smart products while some will, to say that came as a shock to the TL rep was a understatement but yes Keygo if worked similar to Oyster would be great.

I also raised the issue of people who tap in using contactless at St Pancras who's going to Luton, Bedford etc who turn up at those stations expecting to be able to tap out but find themselves facing either a 1st warning or a PF etc, their reply was there will be more posters and announcements pointing out that the last station that contactless is available will be Parkway.

Joe Paxton · 16 Oct 2019

Contactless being available as far north as Parkway but not Luton itself does seem pretty daft.

Any integration with the bus shuttle, i.e. will contactless be available for use on the bus? I'm guessing not...

JonathanH · 16 Oct 2019

Joe Paxton said:
Contactless being available as far north as Parkway but not Luton itself does seem pretty daft.

Not really, the purpose is to allow people going to the Airport to use Contactless, not to change the way people from Luton travel to London.

Aictos · 16 Oct 2019

Joe Paxton said:
Contactless being available as far north as Parkway but not Luton itself does seem pretty daft.

Any integration with the bus shuttle, i.e. will contactless be available for use on the bus? I'm guessing not...

Actually it’s already available on the shuttle

Quote TL “already possible to pay a single fare for a shuttle bus journey using a contactless card or mobile device.”

So yes it will see integration.

Failed Unit · 16 Oct 2019

I was looking again at the keyGo conditions. It is only between GTR stations so it is not possible to buy a station x - London u1 ticket for example. Be interested to see the fares once these new zones come in. But if that fare is the same as the paper fare I will be going contactless for such journeys. But I will be very careful. KeyGo has missed the boat for such journeys.

Although loading other tickets on is a step in the right direction, it isn’t really there yet. If you go to a machine you may as well print the thing. Considering how many flows have mobile tickets that may be preferred. (Although prefer not have to be worried about keeping the phone charged.)

will try loading a travel card on the key to see how complicated it is.

I think GTR have missed an opportunity with keyGo. It is great not to need to queue. But it is so unreliable. Lots of incomplete journeys. I understand it is a known fault at WGC. But when a card opens the gates you don’t expect to need to protest your innocence to an RPI.

Aictos · 16 Oct 2019

When I was shown how to load a travelcard onto the Key, it didn’t look difficult.

Joe Paxton · 16 Oct 2019

JonathanH said:
Not really, the purpose is to allow people going to the Airport to use Contactless, not to change the way people from Luton travel to London.

I'm aware of that, but I'd suggest the potential for confusion is so considerable - contactless being available from a station in Luton (albeit on the edge of town) called Luton Airport Parkway but not from Luton station itself, all of one mile north of Parkway station - that providing contactless at Luton station would be sensible. (And indeed logical.)

Also, my question re contactless and the shuttle bus remains. The Luton DART people mover is coming to replace the shuttle bus, but not until 2021.

GoByThameslink · 16 Oct 2019

Re ' my question re contactless and the shuttle bus remains', the answer is yes it can be used (already).

From Luton Today:

"The through fare to the airport will be the same as the ‘add on’ fare option (i.e. rail journey to Luton Airport Parkway plus the bus fare on top).

GTR’s head of revenue development and retail, Liam Ludlow, said: “We’re pleased to introduce contactless payments onboard our shuttle bus and look forward to bringing contactless Pay As You Go (PAYG) to Luton Airport Parkway station later this year."

JonathanH · 16 Oct 2019

Joe Paxton said:
I'm aware of that, but I'd suggest the potential for confusion is so considerable - contactless being available from a station in Luton (albeit on the edge of town) called Luton Airport Parkway but not from Luton station itself, all of one mile north of Parkway station - that providing contactless at Luton station would be sensible. (And indeed logical.)

Yes, and then you need to provide it at Leagrave which is also in Luton.

Every piecemeal extension of Contactless appears to take ages and be heralded long before it is delivered, almost as if it takes a large amount of programming time and preparation.

Every extension of the London model is a step towards that fare structure becoming the de facto norm around London (with the issues and advantages discussed elsewhere on these forums).

Joe Paxton · 16 Oct 2019

GoByThameslink said:
Re 'my question re contactless and the shuttle bus remains', the answer is yes it can be used (already).

From Luton Today:

"The through fare to the airport will be the same as the ‘add on’ fare option (i.e. rail journey to Luton Airport Parkway plus the bus fare on top).

GTR’s head of revenue development and retail, Liam Ludlow, said: “We’re pleased to introduce contactless payments onboard our shuttle bus and look forward to bringing contactless Pay As You Go (PAYG) to Luton Airport Parkway station later this year."

That's excellent, I am suitably impressed with GTR for managing to do this in a joined up manner.

GoByThameslink · 16 Oct 2019

It's all down to Franchise committed obligations. I *think* the original commitment was to provide Oyster and Contactless to the Airport. The Oyster part has been removed because TfL's Oyster system can't support the number of zones needed (hence Oyster only goes as far as Radlett on the MML) and just the Contactless Portion is being delivered. Radlett, St Albans & Harpenden are also covered mainly because they are between the Airport and Central London

Agree entirely re Luton, Leagrave - and indeed all the stations to Bedford (inclusive).

It is worth remembering that Contactless is not a panacea - it supports only single tickets, doesn't yet (will never??) support rail cards, etc etc

MikeWh · 17 Oct 2019

GoByThameslink said:
doesn't yet (will never??) support rail cards

For the main support all that needs to be done is have a list of railcard linked contactless devices on the central system and supply that list to the revenue inspection devices so that a railcard can be asked for when a card is checked. I say all that needs to be done, but I'm not sure whether the software on the RID has the capability for such a list. It has blacklist and whitelist functions, but is the software controlled by TfL or is it some third party like the manufacturer.

Other minor issues include populating such a list (the further out from London it goes the less popular having to go to a tube station becomes), and what to do when the linked card becomes unavailable through no fault of the passenger (eg swallowed by a cash machine).

redstar · 21 Oct 2019

Posters, and the Thameslink web site, now say contactless is available at St. Albans City. But what are the fares? The TfL single fare finder doesn’t seem to have been updated. Anyone know?

717001 · 21 Oct 2019

redstar said:
Posters, and the Thameslink web site, now say contactless is available at St. Albans City. But what are the fares? The TfL single fare finder doesn’t seem to have been updated. Anyone know?

It took a few days after the August extensions before the TfL website was fully updated with those. Tomorrow appears to be the official launch day.

717001 · 22 Oct 2019

TL are confirming on Twitter that it has launched today https://twitter.com/TLRailUK/status/1186582971530104833 but, at time of writing this, TfL still haven't uploaded fares. No capping at present - hopefully in the New Year.

Whilst trains from London to Luton Airport Parkway and the airport shuttle bus can each take contactless payment, it appears that these are separate systems rather than a through fare.

hkstudent · 22 Oct 2019

I am kind of concerned that if some tourists get on an EMR train from Luton Airport Parkway with contactless, what it can happen?

Mike395 · 22 Oct 2019

According to their Social Media team, Contactless payment is accepted on EMR between Luton Airport Parkway and London and will charge the 'standard fare' (which I assume to be an Anytime Single). I have some nagging doubts about this, and plan to test it at the weekend if others dont get a chance beforehand.

JonathanH · 22 Oct 2019

717001 said:
No capping at present - hopefully in the New Year.

So, if you travel from Luton Airport Parkway to a destination covered by Contactless, that journey won't count towards a cap, regardless of its length? However, subsequent journeys within London would be capped in the usual way. That's even worse than what they did on the Gatwick extension (other than Gatwick Express).

It makes sense to me for St Pancras High Level to Luton Airport Parkway to be charged without an OSI like Victoria to Gatwick on Gatwick Express or St Pancras High Level to Stratford International on Southeastern High Speed (which is actually in the travellers interest if there isn't capping) - not so sure about the fares on Thameslink trains which sound like a recipe to incur quite a high expense.

MikeWh · 22 Oct 2019

JonathanH said:
So, if you travel from Luton Airport Parkway to a destination covered by Contactless, that journey won't count towards a cap, regardless of its length? However, subsequent journeys within London would be capped in the usual way. That's even worse than what they did on the Gatwick extension (other than Gatwick Express).

It's how it works from Brookmans Park, so yes.

JonathanH said:
It makes sense to me for St Pancras High Level to Luton Airport Parkway to be charged without an OSI like Victoria to Gatwick on Gatwick Express or St Pancras High Level to Stratford International on Southeastern High Speed (which is actually in the travellers interest if there isn't capping)

I don't agree. If you wanted to travel onwards from St Pancras low-level then there would be no additional charge with an OSI unless you went beyond zone 6.

redstar · 22 Oct 2019

I tried it this morning from St. Albans City to St. John's Wood (Jubilee line, zone 2) and TfL shows a charge of £11.70 for the journey under 'today's travel'. By comparison the single rail fare for SAC to WHP would have been £11.90 with £1.70 extra for the tube (total £13.60 giving a saving of £1.90).

Assuming the fare is the same in the other direction, the return for that journey would be £23.40 with contactless vs. £20.10 + £3.40 = £23.50 with separate rail + tube.

It looks like single fares might be cheaper with contactless but symmetrical return journeys about the same (kind of what I was expecting).

Will be interesting to see how train + tube journeys via St. Pancras are charged, particularly ones that could also have been made via West Hampstead avoiding zone 1.

hkstudent · 22 Oct 2019

GoByThameslink said:
Re ' my question re contactless and the shuttle bus remains', the answer is yes it can be used (already).

From Luton Today:

"The through fare to the airport will be the same as the ‘add on’ fare option (i.e. rail journey to Luton Airport Parkway plus the bus fare on top).

GTR’s head of revenue development and retail, Liam Ludlow, said: “We’re pleased to introduce contactless payments onboard our shuttle bus and look forward to bringing contactless Pay As You Go (PAYG) to Luton Airport Parkway station later this year."

Contactless pay as you go on shuttle bus would speed up the boarding of the bus.
There are still some people getting to shuttle bus to pay the walk-up fares.

Iggy12a · 26 Oct 2019

The TfL fare finder is now showing contactless fares from Luton Airport Parkway.

St Pancras is £13.10 peak and £9.60 off peak (only peak Mon - Fri from 6:30 to 9:30)

East Croydon is £13.10 peak and £9.60 off peak (peak Mon - Fri from 6:30 to 9:30 and 16:00 to 19:00)

Gatwick is £24.20 peak and £14.80 off peak (peak as for East Croydon)

Skimpot flyer · 26 Oct 2019

redstar said:
I tried it this morning from St. Albans City to St. John's Wood (Jubilee line, zone 2) and TfL shows a charge of £11.70 for the journey under 'today's travel'. By comparison the single rail fare for SAC to WHP would have been £11.90 with £1.70 extra for the tube (total £13.60 giving a saving of £1.90).

Assuming the fare is the same in the other direction, the return for that journey would be £23.40 with contactless vs. £20.10 + £3.40 = £23.50 with separate rail + tube.

It looks like single fares might be cheaper with contactless but symmetrical return journeys about the same (kind of what I was expecting).

Will be interesting to see how train + tube journeys via St. Pancras are charged, particularly ones that could also have been made via West Hampstead avoiding zone 1.

Just looked at a notional trip from St Albans City to Wembley Central
via West Hampstead stations

Peak £10.00
Off-peak £5.80

So, avoiding Zone 1 would cost £11.60 with Contactless if both journeys are off-peak, as the paper off-peak return for this route is £14.00.

If someone makes this round trip and travels in the peak in only one of the two directions, Contactless would be much cheaper, at £15.80 vs £20.80 for the Anytime Return.

The occasional traveller really has my sympathy. Not only do they not usually know about ways to save money using split ticketing or Advances (not in this particular example, admittedly), but now they could also be paying too much simply by using the ‘wrong’ way to pay for their travel

JonathanH · 27 Oct 2019

Skimpot flyer said:
The occasional traveller really has my sympathy. Not only do they not usually know about ways to save money using split ticketing or Advances (not in this particular example, admittedly), but now they could also be paying too much simply by using the ‘wrong’ way to pay for their travel

What do you suggest to resolve this issue? Withdrawing the paper tickets immediately as Contactless is introduced?

There will be journeys, particularly at weekends, where using Contactless is not the right choice by a big margin. A day return from Luton Airport Parkway to Gatwick Airport is as much as £16 cheaper using a weekend super off peak return rather than Contactless.

Skimpot flyer · 27 Oct 2019

JonathanH said:
What do you suggest to resolve this issue? Withdrawing the paper tickets immediately as Contactless is introduced?

There will be journeys, particularly at weekends, where using Contactless is not the right choice by a big margin. A day return from Luton Airport Parkway to Gatwick Airport is as much as £16 cheaper using a weekend super off peak return rather than Contactless.

I hope paper tickets will never be phased out.
I don’t know how to resolve this issue.... but I do think there should be more publicity that Contactless, whilst offering convenience, may not be the best value

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