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Pacer Trains: Politicians call for passenger compensation

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CaptainHaddock

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Well they are both Pacers...

Technically you're right of course but AFAIK in this story the term "pacer" refers to the 142s. In comparison the 144s are actually quite comfortable and many were relatively recently refurbished in 2015 and rebranded as "144 evolution"
 
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sprinterguy

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Technically you're right of course but AFAIK in this story the term "pacer" refers to the 142s.
The original article lists the total number of both class 142 and 144 vehicles in use with Northern. The only 142 specific reference I can see in the article is "They were a joint venture between British Rail and Leyland Motors", but I don't think that the 144s were supposed to be excluded from the commentary.
In comparison the 144s are actually quite comfortable and many were relatively recently refurbished in 2015 and rebranded as "144 evolution"
Only one unit was refurbished in 2015 as a PRM-TSI compliant demonstrator - 144012.
 

Paul_10

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these^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

However, it is worth noting that many posters here simply do not understand politics or the impact of politics on the railways

And your evidence of that is? You do seem to have a habit of making snide remarks in your posts especially if they don't match your views.

Anyways, the idea sounds great in theory but as others pointed out, not totally pratical. Besides any pacers that stay after the DDA deadline, do they have to be paired with a compliant unit? One would assume so but Northern are definately going to have a number of trains which won't be compliment as the process to get them done has been too slow. Going to be interesting too see how it all unfolds.
 

Djgr

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More anti Pacer material appeared on the BBC website.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-50127729
The thought of getting the Pacer train to work fills Andy Barratt, in particular, with dread.

She says the smell and fumes of the diesel engine trigger her asthma, the cramped seats hurt her back and incessant noise as it rattles and bounces along the track drills into her head.

For the past two years she has been commuting from her home in the Dearne Valley, South Yorkshire, to her job in Sheffield city centre on Pacer trains run by Northern.

She claims the 25-minute journey has affected her asthma and anxiety so much that she has had to go part-time in her work at the University of Sheffield and has learned to drive just so she doesn't have to catch the train.

"It's awful," she says, "I just cannot face getting the train."

Northern response (as ever) "not our fault gov".

There is some real anger out there and the key focus is on Northern and their woeful tale of broken promises.
 
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yorksrob

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The 144's generally have better seats and a better 2+2 layout than many 142's, even discounting the ePacer.
 

Djgr

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It's purely a piece of electioneering. They are three Labour mayors seeing an opportunity that they hope will attract voters to Labour in the election that is likely to happen in the next few weeks or months.
Except of course even if there is an election soon there won't be an election for these Mayors.
 

Djgr

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I don't like 153s. Can I have a reduction for every time one of them turns up?
No because no promise was made that these would be off the rails 1/1/20 unlike Northern Pacers.
 

Djgr

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And your evidence of that is? You do seem to have a habit of making snide remarks in your posts especially if they don't match your views.

Anyways, the idea sounds great in theory but as others pointed out, not totally pratical. Besides any pacers that stay after the DDA deadline, do they have to be paired with a compliant unit? One would assume so but Northern are definately going to have a number of trains which won't be compliment as the process to get them done has been too slow. Going to be interesting too see how it all unfolds.
I think it could easily be folded into a Delay Repay scheme, a bit like Virgin East Coast did with compensation for missing seat reservations.
 

stj

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At least they still have a Rail Service,without Pacers some branch lines could have closed in the 80s.
 

thejuggler

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I stopped driving and don't care if its a Pacer. Its cheaper and quicker than the car.

The 195s have caused more problems this week than Pacers have and we are only on Tuesday!
 

507021

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More anti Pacer material appeared on the BBC website.

Northern response (as ever) "not our fault gov".
There is some real anger out there and the key focus is on Northern and their woeful tale of broken promises.

The late arrival of new and cascaded rolling stock needed to replace the Pacers actually isn't Northern's fault.
 

hooverboy

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The late arrival of new and cascaded rolling stock needed to replace the Pacers actually isn't Northern's fault.
failure to provide a suitable contingency plan should a delay happen to new stock most certainly is.
 

AndrewE

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The 144's generally have better seats and a better 2+2 layout than many 142's, even discounting the ePacer.
It doesn't stop them being nodding donkeys! On jointed track a 2-axle vehicle without bogie suspension does not give the ride that we expect on a journey by rail.
 

Andyh82

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The general public don’t know how the railways work, and the politicians use this to their advantage.

The public assume it’s like how buses run, the reason pacers are in the fleet is because Northern can’t be bothered to buy new trains, they prefer to rake in massive profits which goes overseas to Germany.

This is also why services are short formed, because they refuse to buy new trains

They also think Northern have run the franchise since 2004 and they’ve had long enough

Therefore they should be nationalised as then the profits will instead be used to buy new trains
 

507021

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failure to provide a suitable contingency plan should a delay happen to new stock most certainly is.

So what units do you suggest Northern use as a stopgap then?

The last time I checked, there are currently 0 spare diesel powered units available for lease.
 

yorksrob

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It doesn't stop them being nodding donkeys! On jointed track a 2-axle vehicle without bogie suspension does not give the ride that we expect on a journey by rail.

I still prefer a 3 carriage one over a 3+2 150 !
 

Peter C

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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-50127729 said:
She says the smell and fumes of the diesel engine trigger her asthma, the cramped seats hurt her back and incessant noise as it rattles and bounces along the track drills into her head.
Wait... has she been on diesel trains before? Or the London Underground's Central Line?.... :)
I have heard people moaning about Pacers for donkey's years and quite honestly the idea that the BBC puts at the start of the article, whilst true, doesn't reflect that LU on the Victoria Line was using 1967 trains until a few years ago, and the Picc. and Bakerloo still use 1970s stock! I'm referring to this bit:
Political leaders in the north of England have called for rail fares to be reduced to reflect the poor state of the 1980s-built Pacer trains still being used across the region. The BBC asked readers for their experiences of the services.
I know the Pacers are worse than a 1972 or 1973 Tube train, but still...!

And then this bit:
Often she is "pushed and shoved" in a jostling crowd of people, some of whom get quite angry, she says.

If she does get a seat it is "claustrophobic" with not enough leg room and the "seats too close together".

"You cannot win," she says. "I just cannot carry on with the trains, my heart just races.

"I have got noise cancelling headphones but I can still hear the engines, it's like having a drill at the side of your head."
I suffer from anxiety, too, but the sound of the LU Central Line (which, I'm sorry, is more noisy as it is a loud train in an enclosed space than a loud train in the middle of flat fields) is far worse than a Pacer, surely? The whole LU network (and often trains into London, especially SWR) is packed onboard trains, as well, so really - try London and then see how easy they've had it t'up north! :)

-Peter
 

ExRes

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failure to provide a suitable contingency plan should a delay happen to new stock most certainly is.

They most certainly do have a contingency plan, one that might not meet the wishes of twitter uses maybe, but they have the only one that's available, Miss Twitter might like to travel in and out of London in the rush hour with its multitude of new trains, claustrophobia?
 

Kite159

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Even when the pacers are gone, passengers will complain when a high density 150 rocks up to take them from Romiley to Piccadilly
 

EE Andy b1

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Even when the pacers are gone, passengers will complain when a high density 150 rocks up to take them from Romiley to Piccadilly

You can please some people some of the time but you can't please all people all of the time, or something like that! :D:lol:
 

Chris217

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Compensation if a Pacer turns up on your service?

Just another concocted headline by morons trying to score political points IMO. And we always fall for it!

No one gives a damn if it's a Pacer or not
Just as long as it turns up on time and that there is enough provision for the passengers to get on.

The post about being crushed inside a Pacer compared later with London Undergrounds crush hour had me in stitches.
Sardines in a can is nothing compared to Londons beans in a tin!

People need to get a grip.
The BBC is anti Pacer anyway so you all know where it's going.

Some would rather things get much worse before it gets any better.
Once all the new trains have been accepted,only then should they be thinking of full Pacer removal.
Any train is better than no train at all.

What's next?
I want compensation because I was forced to sit backwards as there were no forward facing seats left!
 

Goldie

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At least they still have a Rail Service,without Pacers some branch lines could have closed in the 80s.

Here's the thing: I know that Pacers - with their bargain basement build and operating costs - probably helped keep some lines open during the 1980s. But that knowledge did not help me when I got left behind at Manchester Deansgate because there was no room for me to fit on a Pacer at rush hour, or saw one of the things ambling down the hill from Irlam viaduct towards a rush hour crowd of passengers at Flixton which I knew would not fit on the train, or moving towards one hopefully with my six month old daughter in her pushchair and having the guard give me a sad shake of his head because there was no way we were going to fit. These are all genuine Pacer travel experiences

Which is a long winded way of saying: these things are completely unsuitable for most of the roles they are asked to fulfil, and that has been the case for more than a decade. Allocate blame where you want, but they have no place on the railway. If giving money to the people who have to try and use them to get to and from work either helps them feel better about their miserable commute, or helps Northern get shot of the things more quickly, or reminds the government that their failure to invest properly in the railways has consequences, or any mixture of those, then it is worth looking into.
 

Goldie

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Compensation if a Pacer turns up on your service?

Just another concocted headline by morons trying to score political points IMO. And we always fall for it!

No one gives a damn if it's a Pacer or not
Just as long as it turns up on time and that there is enough provision for the passengers to get on.

The post about being crushed inside a Pacer compared later with London Undergrounds crush hour had me in stitches.
Sardines in a can is nothing compared to Londons beans in a tin!

People need to get a grip.
The BBC is anti Pacer anyway so you all know where it's going.

Some would rather things get much worse before it gets any better.
Once all the new trains have been accepted,only then should they be thinking of full Pacer removal.
Any train is better than no train at all.

What's next?
I want compensation because I was forced to sit backwards as there were no forward facing seats left!

This is a pretty silly post Chris. People clearly do care whether it's a Pacer or not, and there is evidence of that sprinkled throughout this thread. One of the problems with trains operated by Pacers is that there often is not enough space for everyone to get on. See my earlier post for a few Pacer travel anecdotes. And I'm glad you've mentioned the Underground: it, of course, is a high frequency metro where often if you don't get on one train, another will be along in a few minutes. The commuter services Pacers usually operate in the North are nothing like that: on my old commute, I had four trains that I could catch in the two hour slot between five and seven o'clock. If I didn't fit on the first (not uncommon - and no less sardine like than the tube, in my experience) then I had a half hour wait before I could try my luck again, or during which i could try and track down a bus instead.

You've finished off by deriding the idea that people might push for improvements in public transport. In fact, it is probably steadily increasing pressure from Northern passengers and local politicians that has seen these relics off. And I hope that when they are gone, that pressure will be refocussed on some other bugbear of train travel in the North. There are plenty of worthy targets.
 

Chris217

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Only some people care so that they can complain if its,a Pacer.
Usually the ones that always moan anyway.

When they are all gone,they will moan about something else for sure.
More likely regarding to short forms and cancellations.Or having to get on a rail replacement bus!
Something that's already common sadly.

As for London underground.
Yes they have a very high frequency of trains because the very high frequency of passengers.
But it's not as sweet as you suggest.
Being stuck outside the concourse of Victoria tube station waiting for passengers on platforms to clear so we could go through the barriers comes to mind on a recent trip.

Back in Northern land.
20 years ago,I never heard of mass complaints of Pacer use.
Ok they weren't so old back then but if it works,why get rid. Especially if there are stock shortages.
And here is the answer....
Its only SINCE the PRM rule was introduced that people have played the
DDA card to their advantage without consequence of whatever happens next.
But hey...common sense doesn't exist on todays railway anyway!
If people think they can win compensation for whatever reason,they will try for it.
Again...sadly part of the culture today.
And this,if introduced will see the private companies pulling out..

You only have to see privatisation has done most of the damage as private companies are only interested in their returns to the shareholders.
That's why we have overcrowding and minimal services up here

We have had a lot of investment granted.
But hasn't come without its issues.
I am very excited with the news of investment of new trains and electrification.
But let's get it ALL right and running before we hastily withdraw the Pacers.
Also,to end,I find they have been good work horses over the years and deserve the respect they have earnt.
 

HullRailMan

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How can you compensate for this? I don’t remember a certain type of rolling stock being guaranteed to run any given service. You buy a train ticket and hopefully it turns up and gets you from A to B.
This is all about Burnham et al. making cheap points to make it appear they are doing something. The state of Northern today is decades in the making. I doubt he will reference the cock up of a franchise that was let by his government.
 

LMS 4F

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I went to Leeds today and back by bus. A combination of the suspension of the vehicle and the state of the roads, aided by road humps made the ride far worse than anything I have experienced on a Pacer.
Surely I should be able to claim my fare back in the interests of equality between rail and road under Mr Shapps idea. Only trouble is it was free with my bus pass but perhaps I could claim for damage to my old joints.
 

ed1971

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I went to Leeds today and back by bus. A combination of the suspension of the vehicle and the state of the roads, aided by road humps made the ride far worse than anything I have experienced on a Pacer.
Surely I should be able to claim my fare back in the interests of equality between rail and road under Mr Shapps idea. Only trouble is it was free with my bus pass but perhaps I could claim for damage to my old joints.

The state of the roads and suspension of modern buses is another issue. I recall reading an article in an issue of BUSES magazine from 1993, that the suspension of a low floor bus can never be as good as the older models with higher floors. Back then, most public roads were also maintained to a minimum acceptable standard unlike today.
 
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