Is First Class too expensive and should it be abolished?

Mogz · 1 Oct 2019

Mod - split from this thread

In early BR days First Class used to cost just 1/3 more than the applicable Second Class fare.

Why is this no longer the case? On some services the mark-up is insane. Surely it would help reduce overcrowding if some people thought that spending just a little bit more would get them a seat.

Given First Class no longer means privileges such as hot meals or the privacy of a compartment, why does it cost so much?

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VT 390 · 1 Oct 2019

Mogz said:
In early BR days First Class used to cost just 1/3 more than the applicable Second Class fare.

Why is this no longer the case? On some services the mark-up is insane. Surely it would help reduce overcrowding if some people thought that spending just a little bit more would get them a seat.

Given First Class no longer means privileges such as hot meals or the privacy of a compartment, why does it cost so much?

On some routes with limited 1st class if it were just 1/3 more there would not be enougth first class seats for everyone, but I do agree that some 1st class fares are way to high such as XC ones on weekends where 1st can be empty and standard full.

bionic · 1 Oct 2019

VT 390 said:
On some routes with limited 1st class if it were just 1/3 more there would not be enougth first class seats for everyone, but I do agree that some 1st class fares are way to high such as XC ones on weekends where 1st can be empty and standard full.

I was once on an XC train on a Saturday when only myself and one other passenger were in first class while the remainder of the train was full and standing. Both me and the other bloke were railway staff who had been allowed in there by the guard - nobody on the train had a first class ticket and the whole coach would have been carting fresh air if not for us. It's an absolutely crazy situation and I agree with the others who say first class should be abolished.

VT 390 · 1 Oct 2019

bionic said:
I was once on an XC train on a Saturday when only myself and one other passenger were in first class while the remainder of the train was full and standing. Both me and the other bloke were railway staff who had been allowed in there by the guard - nobody on the train had a first class ticket and the whole coach would have been carting fresh air if not for us. It's an absolutely crazy situation and I agree with the others who say first class should be abolished.

I do not think it should be abolished as on weekdays first class on even XC can be quite busy, but perhaps a solution on certain services which are always quiet and ALL weekend first class should be declassified with signs/announcements clearly saying this.

Voyager lad · 1 Oct 2019

bionic said:
I was once on an XC train on a Saturday when only myself and one other passenger were in first class while the remainder of the train was full and standing. Both me and the other bloke were railway staff who had been allowed in there by the guard - nobody on the train had a first class ticket and the whole coach would have been carting fresh air if not for us. It's an absolutely crazy situation and I agree with the others who say first class should be abolished.

I do agree that first class should definitely be cut back, as there is far too much of it on some routes/ operators. I do personally find that on Virgin it can be very busy on weekday peak times, especially on the 0630 and 0737 Glasgow - London Services where I’ve found first class to be full in some cases by Oxenholme. But then off peak on weekdays especially it is just carting around fresh air. I do find however the well priced weekend upgrades do keep both LNER and Virgin first class full most of the day on weekends. Living in Scotland, I do find Scotrail’s first class offering one of the poorest and never travel with them in first unless it’s as part of an advance (eg York - Falkirk). Most of the time Scotrail don’t even enforce first class on routes such as Glasgow - Edinburgh.

Bletchleyite · 1 Oct 2019

VT 390 said:
On some routes with limited 1st class if it were just 1/3 more there would not be enougth first class seats for everyone, but I do agree that some 1st class fares are way to high such as XC ones on weekends where 1st can be empty and standard full.

60% extra is roughly the standard in Europe, which I would suggest we followed, binning off freebies if these make it uneconomic.

Typically UK Anytime tickets do roughly follow this. It's Off Peaks and Advances which are often priced at an outrageous markup.

mrcheek · 1 Oct 2019

bionic said:
I was once on an XC train on a Saturday when only myself and one other passenger were in first class while the remainder of the train was full and standing. Both me and the other bloke were railway staff who had been allowed in there by the guard - nobody on the train had a first class ticket and the whole coach would have been carting fresh air if not for us. It's an absolutely crazy situation and I agree with the others who say first class should be abolished.

I was once on a train where I was the only passenger! THerefore all railway services should be abolished right now!

bionic · 1 Oct 2019

mrcheek said:
I was once on a train where I was the only passenger! THerefore all railway services should be abolished right now!

Yes. Thats it! You've got the hang of it!

GoneSouth · 1 Oct 2019

Exactly the same situation last Saturday, 1st empty and standard bursting on XC heading north from Birmingham. 4 couches, one of them completely empty and no unreserved seating at all is just pathetic. On an unrelated topic, the trolley person also insisted on pushing it through whilst the train was in the station and people were loading/unloading with luggage. Maybe she should have just parked in the empty 1st class Coach and called it the cafe

Terry Tait · 1 Oct 2019

Doors with first class can confuse certain people, when First Great Eastern took over I remember someone at Liverpool Street moaning about the ridiculous amount of first class on the 321 waiting on the platform for Southend

Tetchytyke · 2 Oct 2019

bionic said:
It's an absolutely crazy situation and I agree with the others who say first class should be abolished.

Other TOCs get around this problem by allowing people travelling at a weekend to upgrade for a small(ish) fee.

Not XC, though. "Shut up and take my money" doesn't work with them if you have an advance ticket (as nearly everyone does).

bb21 · 22 Oct 2019

Yes, I know this has been done to death but I have to split it off another thread so willing to give it a chance. Sensible discussions please.

Specifically that means NO "get rid of First Class" type posts with no other justification or reasons given. Thank you.

Crepello · 23 Oct 2019

bionic said:
I was once on an XC train on a Saturday... [Standard Class] was full and standing... It's an absolutely crazy situation and I agree with the others who say first class should be abolished.

TOCs need to maximize the revenue from every square inch of seating, every journey. Such an imbalance indeed suggests they overpriced First on that day - but also underpriced Standard. Rather than depriving those who wish to travel First of their freedom to choose, surely a better solution would be massive hikes in Standard railfares? That would price the crowds into traveling at quieter (thus more affordable) times - or onto alternate forms of transport, reducing trainset wear/tear/energy consumption while maintaining profitability - and increasing accessibility (and thus income) for the refreshment cart.

cambsy · 23 Oct 2019

First Class turn up on the day fares are expensive, but I would say the majority of people in first class off peak, are on advance tickets, which if flexible on time etc, can be very good deal, often not a lot more, and sometimes even cheaper than standard advance fares, and on West and East coast lines, one gets complimentary hot food or food and drink etc, it gets rather more blurred in Southern England where there is hardly any distinction between first and standard, so only reason to go first is to get a seat.

It is hard to say categorically that First Class is too expensive, as when using advance tickets it can be very affordable, sometimes even cheaper than standard, of course some of the First class on the day tickets can be pretty eye watering, and i certainly wouldn’t pay those prices, but if first class advance is less than standard advance, or say 20-30 more, then on long distance journeys, I’m more than happy to pay that for the free food and drinks and more comfortable seat, Regional routes or London area it is more hard to justify as offering in first is not much better than standard.

bunnahabhain · 23 Oct 2019

Personally I'd like to see provision of first class extended out to all of our inter-regional style routes where the journey time can be lengthy, it doesn't need to be more than a dozen seats really. The price it can cost is surely worth it for not having to sit amid the usual commotion in Standard of folk feeling that tinny music on full volume from their phone is an appropriate way to behave.

tom73 · 23 Oct 2019

Crepello said:
TOCs need to maximize the revenue from every square inch of seating, every journey. Such an imbalance indeed suggests they overpriced First on that day - but also underpriced Standard. Rather than depriving those who wish to travel First of their freedom to choose, surely a better solution would be massive hikes in Standard railfares? That would price the crowds into traveling at quieter (thus more affordable) times - or onto alternate forms of transport, reducing trainset wear/tear/energy consumption while maintaining profitability - and increasing accessibility (and thus income) for the refreshment cart.

I don't mean to sound ungracious but which planet are you from? Britain already has the most expensive rail fares in Europe as well as the most underdeveloped rail network generally.

Hadders · 23 Oct 2019

First class carting fresh air around is wide of the mark on log distance services.

Should it be abolished - no.

BenW390Fan · 23 Oct 2019

I do think that First class needs to have it's prices cut down a bit with the capacity staying the same as more people might upgrade as prices lower. I've only ever been on first class once from Euston - Lime Street (Virgin Trains) and we got to sit in the lounge at Euston which was much better than standing crammed together downstairs on the concourse. We get on the train to find that it is almost empty in first class bar a few business workers, still plenty of seats available and unreserved too. We had booked a 4 seat table with no issues, sat down only to find that somebody else had a reserved seat on the seat next to us. There was a 2 seater table seat right behind us unreserved! With this ticket costing an extra 200 quid (from what I remember), I expected better. Later on in the journey the trolley came down and handed out some food and drinks but one of the catering staff spilled orange juice all over the poor lady's laptop sitting next to us and I didn't hear an apology from the staff once! If companies are going to have first class and keep it at the current price they need to up their standards at the very least.

The Ham · 23 Oct 2019

Crepello said:
TOCs need to maximize the revenue from every square inch of seating, every journey.

In which case offer a £5/£10/£15 upgrade which can be offered at the discretion of the guard when first is under used and standard is over used.

This would increase income whilst also making the journey more pleasant for others. The latter would likely mean more travel by those people who are just doing so every so often.

pdq · 23 Oct 2019

Personally, I don't see the point in 'first class' if it doesn't offer anything extra. I've only been lucky enough to travel 1st a few times on business - once on Virgin and a couple of times on GNER (as was). In both cases, these were Advances and the offer of good quality hot food and drink made the smallish increase in fare justifiable.

I realise in the SE a 1st class seat s simply one that costs more, therefore giving people with the relevant means more chance of a seat. Maybe that offer should be renamed, maybe to something like business seating (abbreviated to BS... ). Then the term '1st class' could be reserved for services that really offer something in addition, whether that's decent food, bigger, reclining seats or whatever.

Xenophon PCDGS · 23 Oct 2019

There does not seem much mention made of the first class accommodation offered by TPE so far in this awakened debate and my wife and I, known on this website for not being short of a "penny or two (million)" must have made countless journeys in first class over the years on the North Transpennine routes on journeys to and from York and Durham. We also, prior to the franchise changes, used to make regular rail journeys in the first class section on the TPE Class 185 Windermere services. All these three settlements are very popular with visitors and the reassurance of seating in the first class area in good ambiance when standard class was something of a nightmare at times was well worth the surcharge.

First Class meant a comfortable ambiance on the rail journeys and I did note that this thread seemed to say the cost involved for that grade of travel was too dear and expensive. Not everyone are paupers and I have always maintained that if you can afford the cost, you can enjoy the benefits. Looking at a comparative, I do suppose that the costs of travelling Business Class in air travel would make some on this website go "weak at the knees", but if they do not avail themselves of that facility, then the incurred costs are naught to do with them.

Neptune · 23 Oct 2019

Personally I believe that FC should be abolished on all but long distance Intercity services. Chiltern made the brave decision on this years ago to increase capacity into London and Birmingham. Obviously some people (the minority of FC passengers) didn’t like it but the majority were happy for the uplift in capacity. They introduced the business zone on the mk 3 sets but off peak it is a cheap upgrade from SC.

Greater Anglia have also seen the light with their new trains including Stansted Express. Only the Norwich services will retain it.

Do outer suburban services really need it? I’ve travelled on many services on all sorts of routes where SC is rammed and FC is fresh air. It’s not like it’s much different from Standard Class on most new trains anyway. The worst example is Gatwick Express. It’s just standard class with a doyley yet it’s sold at a premium for a half hour journey. At least Dick Turpin wore a mask.

Essexman · 23 Oct 2019

GoneSouth said:
Exactly the same situation last Saturday, 1st empty and standard bursting on XC heading north from Birmingham. 4 couches, one of them completely empty and no unreserved seating at all is just pathetic. On an unrelated topic, the trolley person also insisted on pushing it through whilst the train was in the station and people were loading/unloading with luggage. Maybe she should have just parked in the empty 1st class Coach and called it the cafe

Was there an announcement about Weekend First? That seems to give a fair compromise of allowing people with Standard tickets to pay a bit more and have a seat (with free drinks & snacks) if there is room in the First Class coach.

Xenophon PCDGS · 23 Oct 2019

Neptune said:
At least Dick Turpin wore a mask.

That did not help him very much when he was executed in York for horse theft.

jtuk · 23 Oct 2019

Having tried Virgin's "effort" earlier in the month I don't think I could ever justify more than a trivially small mark up. EMT's, as it was then when I tried it this time last year, was even worse.

Crepello · 23 Oct 2019

BenW390Fan said:
one of the catering staff spilled orange juice all over the poor lady's laptop sitting next to us and I didn't hear an apology from the staff once!

Not a word of apology, if events took place as you describe?

No - you're BSing us. Safe to dismiss this as total fabrication.

LNW-GW Joint · 23 Oct 2019

The BR standard 1st markup was 50% I'm fairly sure, but might have varied by route/region.
The private TOCs have increased 1st class fares significantly, but they often include food and drink.
Arriva XC was different.
One of its first acts was to increase its 1st class markup to 100%, and it distorts 1st class fares over a wide area.
There is also a food offer with it, but I don't think it's as generous or consistent as the VT/GNER offer.
Others gave gone with "Premium" or "Club" fares which are 1st class in all but name.
First Class fares are unregulated, so the DfT doesn't impose any rules.

Airlines make most of their money from premium fares, with multiple classes on large aircraft.
A lot of travel marketing is about class/fares/package differentials - it's natural that this translates into rail travel, particularly long distance.
I can see why TOCs want to continue the practice for rail, but getting the balance right is hard work.

Llanigraham · 23 Oct 2019

Should it be abolished? Perhaps in commuter is land such as around London, yes as it might mean a slight increase in capacity, but in long distance, no.

Is it too expensive? Perhaps, but looking at the Euston Glasgow service I was on yesterday early evening, somehow I doubt it, as it looked full, and that seems to be the same most times I'm at Euston. I've upgraded a few times on the Shrewsbury Euston and the fee is manageble, especially if I need to get some work done.

Are the perks worth it? From the few times I've used it, yes. The fact that I don't have to buy lunch and coffee and it is brought to me at my seat I find much easier.

And one that I do find excellent is The Gerald. I can get a proper meal between Cardiff and Shrewsbury, so don't have to break the journey there to quickly find a meal, or eat very late when I finally get home.

And I'm disregarding the few times I've been upgraded for nothing because the manager knows I'm ex-rail staff. However when that does happen I refuse the full meal and will only have a snack.

CaptainHaddock · 23 Oct 2019

Yes, first class should be retained but with the proviso that it should make up no more than 10 -15% of the train's capacity. For example, it's madness on Cross Country's dinky little 4 coach voyagers that a quarter of the train is first class when the other 3 coaches are almost always full and standing.

First class walk up fares are IMO too expensive but then it could be argued that most First class walk up tickets are purchased by companies rather than individuals. First class advances on the other hand often prove good value; I often find when travelling on LNER that the first class advance fare is only a couple of quid more than standard.

Whilst on the topic of first class one other change I'd make is to scrap child first class fares; the last thing you want when you've paid for a little extra luxury is a load of screaming kids running up and down the coach!

Bletchleyite · 23 Oct 2019

bunnahabhain said:
Personally I'd like to see provision of first class extended out to all of our inter-regional style routes where the journey time can be lengthy, it doesn't need to be more than a dozen seats really. The price it can cost is surely worth it for not having to sit amid the usual commotion in Standard of folk feeling that tinny music on full volume from their phone is an appropriate way to behave.

Now First Class is primarily a leisure product I find that just as likely to come from families in there as in Standard.

Is First Class too expensive and should it be abolished?

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