Tracked
Established Member
One end of 769424 was being loaded onto a low-loader at Doncaster about an hour ago when I passed
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Porterbrook Cl.769 'Flex' trains from 319s, initially for Northern
- Thread starter pemma
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xc170
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Is this project still going ahead, are any of these units ever likely to enter passenger service?
EE Andy b1
Established Member
There's one thing, i wouldn't hold out for Hydrogen when they can't even get a couple of Diesel Gen-sets to work on these units!!
EE Andy b1
Established Member
Well 769424 is obviously not complete if a driving vehicle is going somewhere by road on a low loader!
Any ideas where?
Tracked
Established Member
Well 769424 is obviously not complete if a driving vehicle is going somewhere by road on a low loader!
Any ideas where?
No idea, I was going past at around 15:45 and it was there, probably not the best time of day to take it to Booth's though
a_c_skinner
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So is the state of play now one unit has made one trip on electric and one on diesel and no more?
It depends on the exact details; perhaps they will be battery-like fuel cells. On the other hand, it may be the case that the DC supply was essentially the output of a bridge rectifier. That might have thrown the engineers off, especially if it is an early-version thyristor control... Then again, I'm relying on stuff from A-level physics that was years ago. That might be part of the original problem in the design.
Perhaps the IGBT-converted Class 455s will make better subjects (once they come off-lease from SWR... eventually...) but they may only be able to hit 75mph. On the other hand, 455s seem able to get away without an intermediate trailer car so they might have some kick as a 3-car flex or even as a functional DEMU away from the third rail.
Bertie the bus
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No. There have been multiple outings. I'm aware of about half a dozen but lost interest after the first set of 4 runs from Allerton - Preston so there might have been more I've not taken any notice of.
a_c_skinner
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Thanks, if this has been reported I'd missed it - apologies. Electric or diesel do you know? Several diesel runs would be an even more heartening development.
Well the ac only versions wouldn't be much use on 3rd rail so there needs to be adequate discrimination in diagramming them. Changing an ac only 769 is a bit more involved than refitting shoes as was the case with 319s and they had three different sub-classes based on seating plans.
There are many classes of EMUs where sub-classes are established for quite superficial reasons when the units them selves are really operationally interchangeable, e.g. class 387 with /1,/2 &/3 variants. *
* I am presuming the the HEX mods to 12 of the /1 sets don't make them different to the other types as they are staying /1 which is the original build for Thameslink.
EE Andy b1
Established Member
I thought the reason Windermere electrification was cancelled was that 769s would be used instead. It will soon be 3 years. Where are they?
There's light at the end of the tunnel! Nice and flat(ish) going to Southport on diesel and if there's any problems you aren't really in anyone's way. I look forward to having a ride on these after such a long wait.
anamyd
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Interesting that the current Alderley Edge to Wigan North Western service is shown in RTT as 'pathed for a class 319 (100mph max)' when the line from Lostock to Wigan isn't electrified and the DMUs used (presumably class 142/150/156) might not do too well on paths timed for 100mph over the faster sections.
Grannyjoans
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Doesn't make sense running these to Southport when they are going to be 769. I thought these were going out of Wigan NW for this purpose ? To keep them on mostly electrified lines with the diesels only being used when necessary as they are likely to be even slower than a pair of 150's.
OK thanks.
It's about 27 miles from Alderley Edge to Lostock under the wires, about half of that is on heavily used 100mph line, where the quicker acceleration to speeds above 25mph are needed. From Lostock to Southport its about 22 miles and beyond Wigan Wallgate, very quiet and almost flat, so the slight low speed acceleration disadvantage over 150s will be irrelevant in timekeeping terms. I've done the drag from Wigan to Southport and the noisy
150s are really fatiguing. The 769s should be much quieter even in the motor trailers and in the MBSO they will sound like an electric train.
Grannyjoans
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It's a shame though that there's nothing better than this for Wigan-Southport. Especially when it was mean't to be 170's originally. Then it was looking like it was going to be 158's, then 319 Flex.
From the driving point of view I'm dreading the thought of doing Southport to Stalybridge on a pair of pacers or sprinters, flex will be slightly better but still nothing like the 170s we were expecting.
From the driving point of view I'm dreading the thought of doing Southport to Stalybridge on a pair of pacers or sprinters, flex will be slightly better but still nothing like the 170s we were expecting.
Driving the trains or a car?
Grannyjoans
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The trains
You are, of course, correct. However, from December it will be the Leeds and Blackburn services (via Atherton) that terminate in Wigan, with the Alderley's running through to Southport. There would be even less point putting the 769s on the via Atherton diagrams, since the only electrified bit of either of those routes is Salford Crescent to Man Vic. At least on the Alderley diagrams they can change power mode at Bolton and then have a clear run to/from Alderley on the wires.
Greybeard33
Established Member
Liverail, http://www.charlwoodhouse.co.uk/rail/liverail/, shows en route changes in power type, timing load and speed. In the December 2019 timetable, most Alderley Edge to Southport services have a 319 timing load to Bolton then a 15x timing load to Southport. Southport to Alderley services have a 15x timing load from Southport to Bolton and from Piccadilly to Alderley, with a 319 timing load from Bolton to Piccadilly.
I imagine the 319 timings are there because the 769s were originally planned to be in service for the May 2018 timetable, and the paths would become non-compliant with the Timetable Planning Rules if 15x timings were substituted.
As long as the covering stock can meet the timings they could timetable it as tan-coloured African elephant. It’s purely a timetable planning matter and nothing whatsoever to do with what stock runs on the line.
Greybeard33
Established Member
But the stock currently operating the Alderley Edge services (a mix of 75mph 15x's and 142s) cannot reliably meet 100mph 319 timings.
In fairness, 319s can't meet 100mph 319 timings, I'd be willing to bet there's not a single one ever got to 100mph up to Bolton, they're woeful above 80mph. Even getting to the 95mph max permissible speed coming down the gradient the other way from Bolton towards Manchester is only fleetingly manageable by Clifton, just before the permissible speed drops to 75mph begore Agecroft.
They would get pretty near to 100 on the MML, - even just before they were withdrawn.