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Second rejection by Northern

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C J Snarzell

Established Member
Joined
11 Apr 2019
Messages
1,506
Morning people

I'm feeling a little frustrated today. In April I submitted an application for trainee conductor with Northern based at Manchester Victoria but dipped the paper sift. I received a standard e-mail from their HR stating I had not been successful and I had to wait six months to re-apply.

Roll forward six months and earlier this month, I applied for the same role again - I believe the trainee conductor post is still advertised. Last night I logged on to my account with Deutsche Bahn and was surprised to see that my recent application has now been marked as 'End of Process'. Northern haven't yet sent me their usual e-mail which is probably on its way at some point.

To say this is very disappointing is an understatement. I started another thread about a separate rejection from a job with Network Rail yesterday, so this has come has a second blow in less than 24 hours.

Back in April, I was a little unfamiliar with what to expect and there was a thread I created at the time in which I felt one of my failings was not providing details of my references. I have since made sure that every application I submit on the Deutsche Bahn site has details of my referees.

I've had family members and a couple of other people view my CV and cover letter to read them from another pair of eyes. A former colleague has stated my cover letter is one of the best she has ever read.

Another frustrating factor is that I cannot get any feedback from Northern or Network Rail to at least find out why I have been rejected. As I have already mentioned previously - I have fifteen years in the police with three years before that working in IT and my people skills and decision making skills are second to none. Unfortunately this doesn't seem enough to cut the mustard not once but at least a handful of times.

Please feel free to offer some support and guidance on here as I do feel at little disorientated by it all and I cannot possibly do anything more than I am already doing to sell myself.

C J
 
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heedfan

Member
Joined
4 Oct 2017
Messages
277
Sorry that you are feeling frustrated by your experience of recruitment in the rail industry. It is an incredibly difficult industry to get into. My own personal experience is that it took the best part of five years of applying for jobs, tweaking CVs, sitting in talent pools only to be disappointed when no job is forthcoming, until I eventually made it. It is an extremely competitive field, especially if you are applying directly for on train safety critical roles such as conductor and driver.

My advice would be that if you are not even making it past the first sift then your CV/applications are not good enough. I know that may be difficult to hear but ultimately if they were good enough then you would get past the sift. You seem to have plenty of life experience so you may just need to sell it better. Are you making sure that each application matches the key requirements for that role? Are you personalising each application for each individual role, matching the required characteristics in the job description to your application? Is your spelling and grammar absolutely perfect? (I would expect so as your posts on here are excellent.)

It is certainly a frustrating experience. But if you want it enough, keep on working hard, making changes to your applications as you are rejected, and you will make progress eventually.
 
Joined
1 Mar 2018
Messages
988
I'd echo most of what heedfan said really. It can be a very frustrating process (I'm still in it and have been for 18 months) and perseverance and patience are your best friends! If you look through this forum you'll see that the vast majority of people who have got jobs on the railway have had to apply numerous times and its taken them a long time (relatively speaking) so keep at it and I'm sure you'll get that job.
 

baz962

Established Member
Joined
8 Jun 2017
Messages
3,281
From my first application to getting a job took around eight years , although I wasn't applying very regularly in that time. After six years and a couple of rejections and one no reply either way , I got invited to assessment centre. Passed everything first time to enhanced but fell at the dmi. Started applying very regularly as I now had the passes and wasn't going to waste them . Six applications and two more year's later , during which I had three rejections and three interview offers , I got my job . During our training I was told my passes were in top two percent and I still had them few applications and rejections and two years to bag it. I started my training just before my 48th and have been qualified as a driver last year. Even with top passes it wasn't easy . As you can imagine I wondered sometimes about whether I would ever get there. My advice can only be that patience is your best friend. Being a great candidate on paper doesn't always work for you. if you keep applying and don't give up , I'm sure you will eventually get there CJ. Good luck and don't give up.
 

Louby

Member
Joined
16 Feb 2012
Messages
669
Just have to keep trying, took me 5 years to pass the paper sift, some are lucky and get through first time, this is the hardest part , but if you really want it you will brush it off and bounce back, and as someone once told me , get on with your life.
 

Aivilo

Member
Joined
15 Jan 2014
Messages
646
Location
Surrey
Feedback isn't given early on in the process due to sheer volume of applicants. I know this is frustrating but patience is a virtue.
 

Davieez

Member
Joined
18 Mar 2019
Messages
30
Sorry to hear you didn’t pass the paper sift. I have been applying for jobs since the start of the year and while I’m no expert I can only say what helped me get through the process.

firstly when looking for jobs I set up alerts on the Deutsche Bahn page AND on google, if you type in google conductor Manchester jobs or train driver Manchester jobs. You can set up an alert to your email which literally emails you everyday. I believe that if you are quick off the mark in getting your application in it certainly helps your cause.

Secondly, I highlighted all the skills and attitudes from the job description I.e customer focused, decision making skills and literally went through all my cv on every job I’ve ever done and also in my personal statement and made sure I mentioned where I have acquired these skills.

on the cover letter I did quite a bit of research into the company and learned what the values of the company were, their aims and mission and said what attracted me to the job, why I wanted to work for northern, what attracted me to them and what value I thought I could add to their company. i think this is very important as they don’t just want you to come and work for them because you want a certain job, they want you to work for them because are attracted to the company and it’s values and ethos.

it’s very difficult because the competition is so fierce and I know where you are coming from. What I have learned is that you’ve just got to keep going with it. Like I said I’ve had numerous applications not go anywhere. I feel very fortunate that I got the chance to be interviewed and now be on the verge of starting a career on the railway pending a medical. I’ve even been going to the gym for that.

I think if you just keep going you will get somewhere eventually. From your experience in the police I’m sure you have lots of skills that are suitable for the railway. Not only that you come across very articulate. I’m sure you will get somewhere eventually. It’s only a matter of time.
 
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ComUtoR

Established Member
Joined
13 Dec 2013
Messages
9,399
Location
UK
Silly question, but have you considered not going through the 'paper shift' ? Bear with me... I have seen a few TOC move towards an online sifting process where a CV isn't requested and the entire process is online using some form of online assessment. When I applied, all I had to fill out was an application form. I never provided a CV or cover letter. This may be a different route to take. I'd also look to go via 'the back door' Apply for a 'lesser' position where there is less of a stringent application process and go via the internal route.

Also, 'End of Process' may not be a rejection, just that you have been sifted and waiting the next stage.

If you have failed twice then I would look closer at the information you have provided. I would not give it to family or colleagues as they tend to have a built in bias or try not to hurt your feelings. Maybe pass it to a recruitment consultant to have a look at. There are plenty of agencies who are willing to provide that service and that may be more helpful because they are independent.

Either way, don't give up.
 

train_lover

Member
Joined
2 Nov 2007
Messages
409
Silly question, but have you considered not going through the 'paper shift' ? Bear with me... I have seen a few TOC move towards an online sifting process where a CV isn't requested and the entire process is online using some form of online assessment. When I applied, all I had to fill out was an application form. I never provided a CV or cover letter. This may be a different route to take. I'd also look to go via 'the back door' Apply for a 'lesser' position where there is less of a stringent application process and go via the internal route.

Also, 'End of Process' may not be a rejection, just that you have been sifted and waiting the next stage.

If you have failed twice then I would look closer at the information you have provided. I would not give it to family or colleagues as they tend to have a built in bias or try not to hurt your feelings. Maybe pass it to a recruitment consultant to have a look at. There are plenty of agencies who are willing to provide that service and that may be more helpful because they are independent.

Either way, don't give up.


A 'lesser position' ....you've been reading too many Aslef news letters my friend.
 

ComUtoR

Established Member
Joined
13 Dec 2013
Messages
9,399
Location
UK
A 'lesser position' ....you've been reading too many Aslef news letters my friend.

I don't subscribe to their propaganda.

There is a reason why I put it in quotes. Maybe you missed that ?

A common solution to people who want to get in the industry, and indeed any industry is to apply for other roles. Many people would consider it 'less' because they feel that they are going in low to get a 'leg up' and climb whatever corporate ladder there is assumed to be. People will apply to 'Platform' because they see it as a path to 'Driver' or try for a depot driver role before getting a mainline driver role. because they see it as easier/lesser/sub optimal/or whatever lower rung on the ladder.

Without a shadow of a doubt; the barrier to entry is easier at different positions. Safety critical roles and roles that are paid considerably higher are over subscribed and are considered to be more prestigious. I can't change that, it just is what it is. Applying for a more customer service based role, over a safety critical one will absolutely change the criteria for entry.

Applying for a role that suits your strengths is a good strategy. If your CV suits an admin role or suits a management role then why not apply for those instead ? If I was desperate for a job on the railway and was turned down for various roles. You know what ? I'd apply for a cleaner role and work my way; er.. 'upwards'

My entire working career was kickstarted as a 'zero hour, stockroom gofer' In terms of where I worked, this was pretty much the lowest position available. 3yrs later, I was running the place.

It is a sad indictment on society today that we still hold those beliefs that some jobs are 'beneath us'. I speak as a person who spent 6 months on the dole, worked as a kitchen porter, store manager, delivery driver, door to door sales, and stockroom gofer.

The recruitment system is broken. You can use it to your advantage or smash your head against the brick wall.
 

Stigy

Established Member
Joined
6 Nov 2009
Messages
4,879
Morning people

I'm feeling a little frustrated today. In April I submitted an application for trainee conductor with Northern based at Manchester Victoria but dipped the paper sift. I received a standard e-mail from their HR stating I had not been successful and I had to wait six months to re-apply.

Roll forward six months and earlier this month, I applied for the same role again - I believe the trainee conductor post is still advertised. Last night I logged on to my account with Deutsche Bahn and was surprised to see that my recent application has now been marked as 'End of Process'. Northern haven't yet sent me their usual e-mail which is probably on its way at some point.

To say this is very disappointing is an understatement. I started another thread about a separate rejection from a job with Network Rail yesterday, so this has come has a second blow in less than 24 hours.

Back in April, I was a little unfamiliar with what to expect and there was a thread I created at the time in which I felt one of my failings was not providing details of my references. I have since made sure that every application I submit on the Deutsche Bahn site has details of my referees.

I've had family members and a couple of other people view my CV and cover letter to read them from another pair of eyes. A former colleague has stated my cover letter is one of the best she has ever read.

Another frustrating factor is that I cannot get any feedback from Northern or Network Rail to at least find out why I have been rejected. As I have already mentioned previously - I have fifteen years in the police with three years before that working in IT and my people skills and decision making skills are second to none. Unfortunately this doesn't seem enough to cut the mustard not once but at least a handful of times.

Please feel free to offer some support and guidance on here as I do feel at little disorientated by it all and I cannot possibly do anything more than I am already doing to sell myself.

C J
I’ve been following your journey as you have probably worked out and can see you’re eager to get a job in the railway. As others have said, the reality is, it’s a captive audience and it’s simply the luck of the draw a lot of the time.

CVs and Cover Letters may not even be a factor at the stage you’re at a lot of the time. If we are just talking CVs etc, what’s worked for me has been keeping it simple. The guidance is generally no more than two sheets of A4 for a CV, and a page for a cover letter. It’s a challenge to get years off experience condensed to within two sheets of A4 admittedly, but you’ll find most employers lose interest after any more. From experience of recruiting people, I can confirm this.

Also, make them both presentable and tart them up a bit with smart, but discreet things such as borders and a decent font. Make sure all fonts are consistent too. Both my cover letter and CV look similar in terms of font and colouring etc. I truly believe this helps and will certainly make you stand out. At this stage, it’s all about standing out from the crowd.
 

Ivor

Member
Joined
19 Sep 2019
Messages
339
Location
Originally Balham & now The West Sussex Coastway
@C J Snarzell you replied positively on my thread re ‘Getting a job with Southern’ & I know it’s no consolation re I echo not moving forward after applying.

I can only share your frustrations & after several applications to Southern & other railway agency colleagues are in the same boat none of us seem to get a foot in the door.

We all have different circumstances in life & where we are in our careers but it does wear you down.

I’ve emailed Southern more than once after getting the thank you but no thank you email for feedback to no avail.
 
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Jamie Price

Member
Joined
16 Aug 2019
Messages
88
Location
Oswestry
Hi C J. I'm sorry to read this as you obviously are very keen to get into the industry, and have worked very hard to get through. My only advice would be don't ever give up on it. I applied at least 10 times for different roles. I applied in December last year for the role I've now got, but was unsuccessful at the sifting stage on that 1 and every 1 before. Then just like that I got the 1 chance, after putting some hard work in on my application. Sell yourself and your experiences as much as possible, as I was told by my CM that he had sifted my application and one sentence stood out to him, so it really does make a difference. And you obviously have a lot of experiences you can use to get this across to the CM or recruiter. That's the hardest part is getting through the initial stage, and if I can get through believe me you can. Don't give up mate, you'll get there.
 

Fireless

Member
Joined
24 Mar 2018
Messages
103
Location
Europe (usually Germany)
The DB online application system is not exactly flawless to say the least.
I have had my application at the status "End of process" ("Vorgang abgeschlossen" in german, which can also just be interpreted as "Process completed") and then disappear entirely from the system some months after the online assessment test without any formal rejection of any kind.
I sent the contact person an email asking what was going on and ended up with a quite similar position (signaller apprenticeship instead of signaller apprenticeship with additional qualification for path planning).

Asking them and showing interest doesn't cost much more than an email or a phone call and you can only benefit from doing so (even if you just get a proper rejection).
 

C J Snarzell

Established Member
Joined
11 Apr 2019
Messages
1,506
Thanks for all the messages on here.

After getting some sleep and relaxation I don't feel half as bad now.

I've submitted numerous applications over the last few months. One of the things I'm not particularly favourable about the Deutsche Bahn process (Northern, Cross Country, Grand Central) is that they do not tend to ask you any competency based questions. I've always found that this adds meat to the bones and allows you to sell yourself. I do remember that the trainee conductor role I applied for in April asked a couple of questions about dealing with confrontation and difficult situations so naturally I used two excellent police examples which sadly wasn't enough to pass the paper sift. DB had removed these two questions for the recent conductor application which I was surprised about.

Again, just because you get the opportunity to sell yourself with answering key questions - there is no guarantee of an interview. I submitted another application recently and answered six questions with essay type answers that took me a good couple of hours to complete. Sadly that was not enough either which was just as frustrating.

To raise the point made by one of the members on here - I do tweak my CV and cover letter to suit the needs of the job I am applying for. On another note, I try and apply for suitable jobs - so I don't apply for jobs where I'm clearly punching above my weight (i.e. Company Director) or another job where I'm not qualified (i.e. Engineering).

What everyone has said on here and I'm in agreement with is that railway jobs attract plenty of interest. I even believe that low grade roles such as gateline operative and customer service assistant are attracting plenty of interest because you do not need any formal qualifications and many people believe these roles act as stepping stones for getting into driving or conductor roles.

I'm definitely still going to keep plugging away and seeing what crops up. I'm even now considering looking at TOCs further afield as I'm more than willing to relocate if necessary for the job I want.

Once again thanks for your support.

C J
 

bionic

Member
Joined
8 Nov 2013
Messages
883
What a lot of people do with CVs and cover letters is just type a load of buzzwords related to the job at the bottom of the page and then change the colour of the text to white so anyone reading it can't see them but a computerised sift will pick them up and it will pass. Apparently this practice is very common in recruitment, or so I'm told.
 

Louby

Member
Joined
16 Feb 2012
Messages
669
Thanks for all the messages on here.

After getting some sleep and relaxation I don't feel half as bad now.

I've submitted numerous applications over the last few months. One of the things I'm not particularly favourable about the Deutsche Bahn process (Northern, Cross Country, Grand Central) is that they do not tend to ask you any competency based questions. I've always found that this adds meat to the bones and allows you to sell yourself. I do remember that the trainee conductor role I applied for in April asked a couple of questions about dealing with confrontation and difficult situations so naturally I used two excellent police examples which sadly wasn't enough to pass the paper sift. DB had removed these two questions for the recent conductor application which I was surprised about.

Again, just because you get the opportunity to sell yourself with answering key questions - there is no guarantee of an interview. I submitted another application recently and answered six questions with essay type answers that took me a good couple of hours to complete. Sadly that was not enough either which was just as frustrating.

To raise the point made by one of the members on here - I do tweak my CV and cover letter to suit the needs of the job I am applying for. On another note, I try and apply for suitable jobs - so I don't apply for jobs where I'm clearly punching above my weight (i.e. Company Director) or another job where I'm not qualified (i.e. Engineering).

What everyone has said on here and I'm in agreement with is that railway jobs attract plenty of interest. I even believe that low grade roles such as gateline operative and customer service assistant are attracting plenty of interest because you do not need any formal qualifications and many people believe these roles act as stepping stones for getting into driving or conductor roles.

I'm definitely still going to keep plugging away and seeing what crops up. I'm even now considering looking at TOCs further afield as I'm more than willing to relocate if necessary for the job I want.

Once again thanks for your support.

C J
maybe your putting too much info on?, keep it simple and brief
 

LoogaBarooga

Member
Joined
11 Jul 2019
Messages
233
maybe your putting too much info on?, keep it simple and brief
I'd agree with that tbh. All my successful applications have been really concise .

Use the criteria given in the job description and state how your skills and experience meet them.

Again though like everyone else has said be prepared for multiple rejections before you get any success. You'll definitely get there in the end so it's worth the effort.
 

Steam Man

On Moderation
Joined
9 May 2019
Messages
95
I’m on a heritage steam railway and I’m absolutely loving it I find the job very rewarding it would take me a lot to leave
 

Red1980

Member
Joined
8 Apr 2019
Messages
296
I'm sorry to hear of the struggles you're encountering with the recruitment process. I will say it's somewhat surprising given you have 15 years in the police etc to work with as that's something they normally love.

What I will say is that probably tells a story. As others above have said there's definitely something not right with your application somewhere. Also I know you said that your people skills etc were second to none....but remember that the railway has numerous police officers, firefighters, armed forces personell, Pilots and current internal railway staff all applying and all sharing that same quality.

You have to find a way to make your application stand out from lots of others who share the same qualities as you. Over the years the people applying from those industries I mentioned has gone through the roof because of things like those industries not being what they were and the security the railway offers.

I won't lie to you. You need to get that application to the absolute top or you're going to struggle big time as the sift itself is one of the hardest parts of the process. It's also worth looking at what tools you'd use AFTER the sift to get you even further along the process...... For example are the tools/examples you're currently using to attempt the application the same ones you're planning on using further along in the process should you get through? If so it may well be worth looking at those to see if their suitable as well.

I'm sorry to be so honest about it all....it's just they have people with prior safety/customer service experience coming out of their ears now so you're still one of many unfortunately.

Feel free to PM me some of the things that you are using in your application and I'll happily take a look I'm no expert but I somehow got through lol. I wish you the best of luck.
 
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