Belgian recommendations (Brugge/Ghent/Brussels)

Evening all,

I'll be staying in Brugge shortly and spending some time in that part of Belgium, visiting Brussels and Ghent.

What sort of stock can I expect on that line?

Having had a brief look at wikipedia, looks like electric locos + push pull sets. Nothing too exciting but they look fairly enjoyable to travel on... I believe they are Intercity services to Ostend? Are there any services between those 3 locations that are units/best to avoid?

Additionally anything particularly interesting that is worth going out of my way for?

Thanks in advance

CC 72100 said:

I'll be staying in Brugge shortly and spending some time in that part of Belgium, visiting Brussels and Ghent.
Additionally anything particularly interesting that is worth going out of my way for?
Thanks in advance

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It seems you have never been to that part of the world before.
Enjoy those three cities - each with their own characteristics!

CC 72100 said:

What sort of stock can I expect on that line?

Having had a brief look at wikipedia, looks like electric locos + push pull sets. Nothing too exciting but they look fairly enjoyable to travel on... I believe they are Intercity services to Ostend? Are there any services between those 3 locations that are units/best to avoid?

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You can check the planned allocation on http://beluxtrains.net/indexen.php and the real time configuration (but only stylized) on https://trainmap.belgiantrain.be/?lang=nl.
The Eupen-Oostende ICs (5xx) are usually formed of 1800s with I11s, which are indeed quite nice, Blankenberge-Genk normally has M6 double-deckers on it with the odd MS96 (rubber ring, nearly identical to I11s from a passenger viewpoint) thrown in. Knokke-Brussel sees some MS80s and also M6s.

Struner said:

It seems you have never been to that part of the world before.
Enjoy those three cities - each with their own characteristics!

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Oops - that was meant to say interesting rail-related! But the point stands - I've only visited Brussels before on a school trip, and that was over 10 years ago, so looking forward to going back.

As Brugge is in the Flemish speaking part of Belgium, it could be interesting linguistically - I can speak fluent French but not a word of Flemish. So depending on cultural views of language, nothing may be better than possibly offending with the French?!

That's a really useful website for compositions, I can have some good fun with that - thanks. The 21 and 27 locos look the most interesting but think the majority of the IC trains are 1800s and 1900s?

I10 & I11 sets will be with a single HLE 18 on the Oostende side of the train and a car with a driving cabin on the other side. You can expect mainly 12 car sets.

M6 sets will be top and tail with HLE 18, or in formations of 5 cars + 1 HLE 19 (same as HLE 18 but with automatic couplers), coupled by two.

AM 96s can be coupled by up to 4 units, so also 12 cars maximum.

Be aware that Brugge in the most expensive city in Belgium regarding lodging so you would be better off staying in Gent, where there is a tram network worth exploring, and take the train to Brugge for the visits. There are 4 trains per hour in each direction between those two cities.

While in Brugge and in Gent, you will get more sympathy if you stick with English rather than trying to speak french.

CC 72100 said:

As Brugge is in the Flemish speaking part of Belgium, it could be interesting linguistically - I can speak fluent French but not a word of Flemish. So depending on cultural views of language, nothing may be better than possibly offending with the French?!

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You don't need to worry about getting by without knowing Flemish. English is widely spoken, especially amongst younger people, and by people working in hotels, shops, train guards etc. It always helps to be able to greet and thank people in their language.

I've never stopped in Brugge, but I've visited places like Gent, Brussels, Mechelen and Antwerp. I really like them in general, although you can always find grottier neighbourhoods whereever you go.

CC 72100 said:

Oops - that was meant to say interesting rail-related! But the point stands - I've only visited Brussels before on a school trip, and that was over 10 years ago, so looking forward to going back.

As Brugge is in the Flemish speaking part of Belgium, it could be interesting linguistically - I can speak fluent French but not a word of Flemish. So depending on cultural views of language, nothing may be better than possibly offending with the French?!

That's a really useful website for compositions, I can have some good fun with that - thanks. The 21 and 27 locos look the most interesting but think the majority of the IC trains are 1800s and 1900s?

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1. That way round is much easier than my situation (rather decent Flemish, no French) as the Flemish tent to be more flexible regarding language.
2. P7002 and P8001 (Oostende-Schaarbeek, 0639 ex Oostende, 1623 ex Schaarbeek) should have a 27 in front of some M4s, but I don't know how frequently a 18 might pop up instead. (P7001 and 8002 are worked by a 18 with M4s).

CC 72100 said:

Oops - that was meant to say interesting rail-related! But the point stands - I've only visited Brussels before on a school trip, and that was over 10 years ago, so looking forward to going back.

As Brugge is in the Flemish speaking part of Belgium, it could be interesting linguistically - I can speak fluent French but not a word of Flemish. So depending on cultural views of language, nothing may be better than possibly offending with the French?!

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That’s alright. Trains are means of getting you somewhere. I hope you enjoy both your travels & your cities. Looking forward to your “report”.
Use English instead of French tho.

CC 72100 said:

As Brugge is in the Flemish speaking part of Belgium, it could be interesting linguistically - I can speak fluent French but not a word of Flemish. So depending on cultural views of language, nothing may be better than possibly offending with the French?!

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Most flemish people can speak French if forced hard enough but you will be way better off using English.
Yet it is a good idea to learn just a tiny little bit of Dutch (Flemish is a dialect of the dutch language) as most dutch speakers, especially in a country where the language has a tradition of being oppressed, do appreciate it a lot.

Ironically I popped onto the forum to ask about the same area, but for volume of freight. How much freight is there on the Brugge - Gent line these days (from Zeebrugge mostly I assume)? Or is it sparse because freight dives off at Brugge towards Kortrijk and Lille?

I would stick to English in Flanders. Although I've noticed that if you are spending money there then people quickly remember they can speak French Brussels inhabitants are generally francophone but with a lot of Flemish speakers commuting there for work during the week. I read somewhere that Spanish is estimated to be Brussels second language. It seems they are not allowed to collect statistics on language use.

I've been living Belgium for twenty years and found that politicians on all sides of the linguistic divide like to whip up populism and blame the other side for their own failures. At a personal level I've found this attitude completely disappears once people have something in common. I'm in an owners club for a mark of old Italian scooter and the atmosphere at our meetings is amazing, everyone making an effort in several languages. I work in Brussels and the company is split more or less 50/50 (I'm the only native English speaker). In meetings everyone speaks the language that lets them explain themselves the best and it is quite wonderful to see the mix. A very fast conversation between two people, one speaking Dutch the other French.

Brugge, expensive, very beautiful and full of Chinese tourists. They seem to block book for everything in advance, an entire tourist boat for example.
Gent, lefty student town with a great atmosphere of creativity. Friends from Gent are just really down to earth and cool. A bit like Californians.
Antwerp, everyone quite abrupt, bordering on aggressive or arrogant. The New Yorkers of Belgium. My brother in law thinks all port towns are like this.
Brussels, mixed up beyond belief. Where I work in Madou you are more likely to hear English (many international accents), Polish, Albanian, Turkish, Arabic in the street than French or Dutch.

For spotting I go through Brussels Midi twice a day and there are often engineering trains passing through. There's a rail grinder there at the moment with top and tail class 62 locos. Of course you've also got Thalys, TGV, ICE, Eurostar the NS International train to the Netherlands (top and tail Traxx). You don't see much container freight there though as it by passes Brussels.

If you have time while you're in the area, Ypres is also worth a day-trip.

sprunt said:

If you have time while you're in the area, Ypres is also worth a day-trip.

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Yes but If you want a battlefield tour, book beforehand.

Gordon said:

Ironically I popped onto the forum to ask about the same area, but for volume of freight. How much freight is there on the Brugge - Gent line these days (from Zeebrugge mostly I assume)? Or is it sparse because freight dives off at Brugge towards Kortrijk and Lille?

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Lots. Really. The line between Gent and Brugge is being quadrupled because of this.

Spoorslag '70 said:

1. That way round is much easier than my situation (rather decent Flemish, no French) as the Flemish tent to be more flexible regarding language.
2. P7002 and P8001 (Oostende-Schaarbeek, 0639 ex Oostende, 1623 ex Schaarbeek) should have a 27 in front of some M4s, but I don't know how frequently a 18 might pop up instead. (P7001 and 8002 are worked by a 18 with M4s).

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Just googled the M4s, they look rather good fun, a little like the DB n-wagens. Think those P- trains you've quoted are worth a spin one evening.

MarcVD said:

I10 & I11 sets will be with a single HLE 18 on the Oostende side of the train and a car with a driving cabin on the other side. You can expect mainly 12 car sets.

M6 sets will be top and tail with HLE 18, or in formations of 5 cars + 1 HLE 19 (same as HLE 18 but with automatic couplers), coupled by two.

AM 96s can be coupled by up to 4 units, so also 12 cars maximum.

Be aware that Brugge in the most expensive city in Belgium regarding lodging so you would be better off staying in Gent, where there is a tram network worth exploring, and take the train to Brugge for the visits. There are 4 trains per hour in each direction between those two cities.

While in Brugge and in Gent, you will get more sympathy if you stick with English rather than trying to speak french.

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Thanks, that's what I was trying to understand; whether french is 'accepted', begrudgingly 'tolerated' or not really appreciated. The 12 car sets with basically 2x loco + coaches look very strange to us brits, a loco in the MIDDLE of the formation - madness!

Fireless said:

Most flemish people can speak French if forced hard enough but you will be way better off using English.
Yet it is a good idea to learn just a tiny little bit of Dutch (Flemish is a dialect of the dutch language) as most dutch speakers, especially in a country where the language has a tradition of being oppressed, do appreciate it a lot.

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Oh I'll endeavour to learn a few basics, always aim to. Got told I spoke good Polish once after a few days in Krakow!

Your trip may coincide with the Six Days of Ghent (Gent Zesdaagse) cycle racing. Even a cheap ticket to the standing zone in the middle of the Gent Kuipke velodrome is worth it. Disco music, beer and eight hours of world class cycle racing every night for a week!

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CC 72100 said:

Evening all,

I'll be staying in Brugge shortly and spending some time in that part of Belgium, visiting Brussels and Ghent.

What sort of stock can I expect on that line?

Having had a brief look at wikipedia, looks like electric locos + push pull sets. Nothing too exciting but they look fairly enjoyable to travel on... I believe they are Intercity services to Ostend? Are there any services between those 3 locations that are units/best to avoid?

Additionally anything particularly interesting that is worth going out of my way for?

Thanks in advance

Click to expand...

If you're in Brugge for any length of time I can thoroughly recommend the Brugse Zot beer. Information on its web site here.

I have been visiting Gent three times yearly since 1986, and Sint Pieters Station, during all that time, has always had some construction work. It is still ongoing! It’s a mile from the city centre, and last weekend there were works on the tramline, not sure if they are still in force. Unfortunately all the old De Lijn trams seem to have disappeared now.
Gent is a superb city, not as touristy as Brugge. You might as well speak English, as as soon as you try and speak Dutch you will get replied to in English anyway. The most useful word is ‘pintje’ which will get you 33cl of ‘standard‘ lager like Stella, Jupiler or Maes: if it’s a very noisy bar just clench your fist and put your little finger in the air!

In Brussels, speak French if you can. If not just go for English especially in Flanders. I've never detected even the slightest hint of resentment in that part of the world in terms of speaking English that you might get elsewhere. I personally like to try and pick up at least a bit of a lingo and I have conversational French and German but Flemish and indeed Dutch have always foxed me.

Gent is one of my favourite places - it's lovely city.

LowLevel said:

In Brussels, speak French if you can.

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I don't think that's a good idea unless you are absolutely sure that you are speaking to a French speaker. In Wallonia English speaking is more sporadic so speaking French would be useful.

LowLevel said:

I have conversational French and German but Flemish and indeed Dutch have always foxed me.

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I've tried all three and I find Dutch the easiest and most logical. Not surprising given Dutch is the closest major language to English.

radamfi said:

I've tried all three and I find Dutch the easiest and most logical. Not surprising given Dutch is the closest major language to English.

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Frisian being the closest of course.

If there's time, look at the Brussels metro and the Brussels and Antwerp pre-metros (although Antwerp is sticking at "pre", it's a fascinating story). Particularly, try the line 3 or 4 trams between Brussels Midi and North stations, as the route will soon be turned into part of a full metro line. And in Antwerp, still plenty of PCC trams left, they will be gone in about three years.

In my experience, people's expectations about which language to use can change as they cross the road in Brussels, and in the city centre (and the Francophone suburbs) even the most Dutch of speakers wouldn't be surprised to be spoken to in French.

Any ideas how long the Brussels town hall regeneration work is going on? That scaffolding isn’t too nice. When I went to Antwerp last year the city centre was barely visible due to works going on.

Just come back from a few days in Belgium, staying in Brussels, and didn't have any problems at all with language.

Can someone tell me what a 'P' train is, please?

Went to Namur back in 2008 and they were working on the station and on four-tracking towards that city, and so decided to make a trip there on this visit expecting to see the works completed; surprised that - although all of the civil works to Ottignies seemed to be completed - no track has been laid, and Namur station looks to be further back than it was 12 years ago!

However, I caught a Luxembourg service from Brussels Central and it was shown on the destination screen as 'P'; can't ever remember seeing that classification before.

Don't know if there was a problem with the booked train, but it was suddenly shown as being late and when it arrived at Central it was formed of a very eclectic mix of stock, and when I got off at Namur I saw we'd been pushed by a 1300; it was only the second one I'd seen during my stay (the other was on a freight in the Mechelen area). Is this normal? Last time I went from Brussels to Luxembourg (in 2009) it was formed of an AM96 EMU

grumpyoldman01 said:

Just come back from a few days in Belgium, staying in Brussels, and didn't have any problems at all with language.

Can someone tell me what a 'P' train is, please?

Went to Namur back in 2008 and they were working on the station and on four-tracking towards that city, and so decided to make a trip there on this visit expecting to see the works completed; surprised that - although all of the civil works to Ottignies seemed to be completed - no track has been laid, and Namur station looks to be further back than it was 12 years ago!

However, I caught a Luxembourg service from Brussels Central and it was shown on the destination screen as 'P'; can't ever remember seeing that classification before.

Don't know if there was a problem with the booked train, but it was suddenly shown as being late and when it arrived at Central it was formed of a very eclectic mix of stock, and when I got off at Namur I saw we'd been pushed by a 1300; it was only the second one I'd seen during my stay (the other was on a freight in the Mechelen area). Is this normal? Last time I went from Brussels to Luxembourg (in 2009) it was formed of an AM96 EMU

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Some of the Brussel - Luxemburg workings are booked for a 13 and some coaches (including I6 corridor stock!).

A "P" train is a Peak-extra (but on the Luxemburg line, some trains during the day are also classified as that - why ever), for which you can read:
1. random start and end points (but many trains starting at Schaarbeek or Brussel-Zuid)
2. random stopping patterns (e.g. a direct connection from Brussel to Beenem, which only sees local stoppers during the day)
3. random stock: Anything NMBS has got to offer

The CFL (Luxemburg railways) part of the Brussels-Luxemburg line has been switched from 3 kV= to 25 kV~ electrification not so long ago. CFL is now homogeneous 25 kV~, no more dual system tracks in Luxemburg station. The separation between 3 kV= and 25 kV~ is now near the border. Since then, AM96 that were normally assigned to this service cannot go to Luxemburg anymore because they are 3kV= only. Some of those AM96 are effectively 3kV= and 25kV~ capable but there are only 50 of them and they are all assigned on the lines to Lille, so not possible to reallocate enough of them (*). So approximately half of the Brussels-Luxemburg trains are currently made of 3kV= only stock, and therefore limited to Arlon, with a local corresponding move to Luxemburg available, and the other half made of HLE13 + HVI10/I11 stock that can go to Luxemburg. HLE18 is not qualified for CFL yet (it's in progress) so that's why HLE13 are still used. Once HLE18 is qualified, HLE13 usage by SNCB will cease entirely. In the near future, the belgian line 162 will also be switched to 25kV~, I suppose you have noticed the works in progress. First step between Luxemburg border and Hatrival, somewhere half way to Namur. Second step to Namur later, with the electrical separation already visible right near the bridge over the Meuse river.

(*) this might change next year: there are currently tests in progress with SNCF AGC bi-bi carts equipped with belgian TBL1+ safety system, on the line between Lille and Tournai. Probably those will take over between Lille and Tournai as of the next end of year schedule change, and this would free up enough bicourant AM96 sets to serve the Brussels-Luxemburg service. AGCs will use the 25 kV~ catenary and switch to diesel when the wires are 3kV=, as they can't take that. Not sure where the switch between electric and diesel mode will take place though, as the separation between 3kV= and 25kV~ is not at the physical border. SNCF rules have this kind of mode switch foreseen, with supporting signals along the tracks for it, but there is nothing foreseen in the SNCB rulebook for that...

Namur station works are complete regarding trackwork (although I do not understand why the entry/exit from/to Liege (line 125) is still so slow) but final works on the building have long be waiting for a decision about what to do with its roof. In the beginning, a movie theatre complex was foreseen, but this didn't go through. Now it's been decided to build a bus station on this roof, works are in progress.

Line 161 quadrupling (RER project) was stalled for more than 5 years because of lack of funding. Now the funding issue has been solved and works are in progress again. As it is not possible to disturb or detour the existing traffic, the layout of new tracks will have to be carefully planned (two tracks must remain available at all times, except during nights and week-ends) and are likely to take several years. Works on quadrupling the northern part of line 124 Brussels-Charleroi have resumed as well.

grumpyoldman01 said:

Can someone tell me what a 'P' train is, please?

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From https://www.belgiantrain.be/en/support/faq/faq-routes-schedules/faq-train-types

• InterCity (IC): IC trains connect Belgium’s large cities. These trains only stop at the biggest train stations and sometimes cross international borders.
• Peak (P): P trains run during peak travel times. They provide additional alternatives when you’re travelling during busy periods. Most of these trains run in the mornings and in late afternoon.
• Local trains (L): L trains generally connect cities, but they also stop at every station along the route.
• S-trains (S): S trains are suburban trains that connect the city centre with the surrounding communes. S trains stop in most stations along the route.
• EXTRA: Additional train services, used at exceptionally busy periods. For example, these are the trains that travel towards the Belgian coast on very sunny days.
• International trains (INT = EC, THA, TGV, ICE, EST): Regular international trains, namely Eurocity, Thalys, TGV, ICE and Eurostar

In French the "P" means "Heure de pointe" or rush hour.

TheSeeker said:

In French the "P" means "Heure de pointe" or rush hour.

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And "Piekuur" in Flemish thus preserving the mystery of which language is really being used!