LNWR service from Liverpool to Birmingham and London.

Ianno87 · 24 Oct 2019

Bletchleyite said:
Does TL have the same level of interworking between the branches? I thought they were much simpler diagrams, which even with the long through services and congested centre must make it easier to unpick problems.

IOW, the problem is less that there are through services and more that units and crews are coming and going to all sorts of destinations so you can't simply bring everything back on time by cancelling a round trip and stepping up.

Generally, everything (rolling stock wise) is on self-contained circuits most of the day. E.g. trains just ping back and forth between Cambridge and Brighton, with decent turnround times at both ends to recover late running. There are a few quirks in the peak (e.g. trains starting from Horsham go to Bedford in the morning peak, then Peterborough thereafter) but otherwise it's fairly 'set' and standardised.

I think train crew is intended to be fairly simple too, with limited mid-route crew changes and drivers working end to end as far as possible.

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Bletchleyite · 24 Oct 2019

Ianno87 said:
Generally, everything (rolling stock wise) is on self-contained circuits most of the day. E.g. trains just ping back and forth between Cambridge and Brighton, with decent turnround times at both ends to recover late running. There are a few quirks in the peak (e.g. trains starting from Horsham go to Bedford in the morning peak, then Peterborough thereafter) but otherwise it's fairly 'set' and standardised.

I think train crew is intended to be fairly simple too, with limited mid-route crew changes and drivers working end to end as far as possible.

I'd suggest, then, that if LNR want to maintain the through services, this is how they need to do it.

Ianno87 · 24 Oct 2019

Bletchleyite said:
I'd suggest, then, that if LNR want to maintain the through services, this is how they need to do it.

LNR is however kind of having to fit around everything else, so it can't be optimised in the same way Thameslink can.

Ideally, it just needs the pre-joining up TT pattern as the starting point, but then looking for the opportunities to create longer through services without breaking key principles:

-Symmetrical pattern
-Mid-route recovery opportunitu
-Decent destination turnround time
-Etc.

gazzaa2 · 25 Oct 2019

frodshamfella said:
Was waiting at Crewe today for 13.33 to Lime St, im going to Acton Bridge. Service was nearly 30 mins late, in fact loads of delays being announced.
When i did get on the train it was announced the service will terminate at South Parkway.

Seems to happen a lot that it's cancelled between Lime Street and South Parkway or Crewe in either direction or between Birmingham or Northampton and Euston. The percentange of trains on the service that actually make it from Lime Street to Euston, and vice versa, and make all the stops with minimal delay (a few mins) must be pitifully low.

AndrewE · 25 Oct 2019

gazzaa2 said:
Seems to happen a lot that it's cancelled between Lime Street and South Parkway or Crewe in either direction or between Birmingham or Northampton and Euston. The percentange of trains on the service that actually make it from Lime Street to Euston, and vice versa, and make all the stops with minimal delay (a few mins) must be pitifully low.

Apart from the annoyance of an unreliable service, with connections being missed all over the place, the most damaging aspect of this is that they don't warn people at Lime St that it is going to happen, so you don't get a chance to get out to your train at South Parkway. Result: they claim their train is on time, but none of the intending passengers from Lime St are on board. Tough if you were hoping to get a connection at Nuneaton, for example.

frodshamfella · 25 Oct 2019

gazzaa2 said:
Seems to happen a lot that it's cancelled between Lime Street and South Parkway or Crewe in either direction or between Birmingham or Northampton and Euston. The percentange of trains on the service that actually make it from Lime Street to Euston, and vice versa, and make all the stops with minimal delay (a few mins) must be pitifully low.

Yes I think your right.

frodshamfella · 25 Oct 2019

AndrewE said:
Apart from the annoyance of an unreliable service, with connections being missed all over the place, the most damaging aspect of this is that they don't warn people at Lime St that it is going to happen, so you don't get a chance to get out to your train at South Parkway. Result: they claim their train is on time, but none of the intending passengers from Lime St are on board. Tough if you were hoping to get a connection at Nuneaton, for example.

That's really poor.

frodshamfella · 25 Oct 2019

From Lime Street I've switched to the new Frodsham service, the LNWR has gone down the pan.

Old Yard Dog · 25 Oct 2019

fowler9 said:
Regarding the stroll from Central to Lime Street it certainly isn't the most pleasant in the world but I have had equally bad if not worse in London, Manchester, Birmingham, Leeds, Glasgow etc.

If you are really worried about walking, there are very frequent trains from Lime Street to Central and, in the other direction, from Moorfields to Lime Street.

Dr Hoo · 25 Oct 2019

frodshamfella said:
From Lime Street I've switched to the new Frodsham service, the LNWR has gone down the pan.

Am I missing something? I didn’t think that LNWR (or London Midland or even Central Trains before them) had provided regular services at Frodsham.

frodshamfella · 25 Oct 2019

Dr Hoo said:
Am I missing something? I didn’t think that LNWR (or London Midland or evening Central Trains before them) had provided regular services at Frodsham.

Transport for Wales do via Halton Curve.

Bletchleyite · 25 Oct 2019

frodshamfella said:
Transport for Wales do via Halton Curve.

I think the confusion (and I'm confused too) is how you would switch between LNR and TfW as they don't serve the same line or places?

urbophile · 25 Oct 2019

Bletchleyite said:
I think the confusion (and I'm confused too) is how you would switch between LNR and TfW as they don't serve the same line or places?

I'm assuming that Frodshamfella lives midway between both lines.

Penmorfa · 25 Oct 2019

AndrewE said:
Apart from the annoyance of an unreliable service, with connections being missed all over the place, the most damaging aspect of this is that they don't warn people at Lime St that it is going to happen, so you don't get a chance to get out to your train at South Parkway. Result: they claim their train is on time, but none of the intending passengers from Lime St are on board. Tough if you were hoping to get a connection at Nuneaton, for example.

I have seen it both announced and shown on the screens at Lime Street, allowing sufficient time to get to South Parkway.

frodshamfella · 26 Oct 2019

Bletchleyite said:
I think the confusion (and I'm confused too) is how you would switch between LNR and TfW as they don't serve the same line or places?

Oh ok, my two most handy stations are Acton Bridge or Frodsham. So now I have a choice because of the new TfW service. Sorry for confusion.

frodshamfella · 26 Oct 2019

David Emmott said:
I'm assuming that Frodshamfella lives midway between both lines.

Indeed so.

Bletchleyite · 26 Oct 2019

frodshamfella said:
Oh ok, my two most handy stations are Acton Bridge or Frodsham. So now I have a choice because of the new TfW service. Sorry for confusion.

Ah, I see. I'd do most things to avoid LNR at the moment, it's just too unreliable.

Matt_pool · 26 Oct 2019

This mornings 7.49 LNR service from Euston to Lime Street only made it as far as South Parkway where it was terminated!

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/P46016/2019-10-26/detailed

This means the 12.05 from Lime Street is now starting at South Parkway!

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/P44872/2019-10-26/detailed

It's probably already been pointed out, but occurances like this will put more pressure on other services from South Parkway to Lime Street (and vice versa) as passengers who had the option of getting the LNR serice will now have to use EMR, Merseyrail and Northern services, which at times are already very busy.

gray1404 · 26 Oct 2019

I really hope they return to a more reliable Liverpool to Birmingham service. Then a separate connection for Euston.

I very regularly travelled this route taking the 2 separate trains and provided the service from Liverpool wasn't more then around 7 minutes late could make the Euston via Northampton connection.

If they really want to provide a Liverpool to Euston direct service with WMT then this can only be realistically achieved by extending the existing Crewe to Euston via Trent Valley service. Moreover now it runs direct between Crewe and Stafford. I cannot believe this hasn't been done already.

Grumpy Git · 26 Oct 2019

I was on an early morning LIV-EUS LNW service in early September. As we left Crewe, the guard announced delays south of Birmingham and told anyone going south of there to change at Stafford if they wished, (for the faster service via Tamworth). Result for me as I was in EUS 20 minutes earlier.

fowler9 · 30 Oct 2019

Penmorfa said:
I have seen it both announced and shown on the screens at Lime Street, allowing sufficient time to get to South Parkway.

And I've seen it not announced or shown on the screens until it is too late to get to Parkway, and that happens frequently especially during the peak when most of the other services to Parkway are up the wall anyway.

They are having a large impact on other operators as well. As I have mention before, when you get a service terminated at Parkway everyone off a packed LNR service piles over to platform 2 to get on to whatever already crowded service turns up. This is obviously also delaying other services.

fowler9 · 30 Oct 2019

I'm actually just passing through Liverpool South Parkway and as if by magic after what I just said the LNR service has been terminated here and all the passengers are further delaying the East Midlands in to Lime Street. It is a farce.

LowLevel · 30 Oct 2019

fowler9 said:
I'm actually just passing through Liverpool South Parkway and as if by magic after what I just said the LNR service has been terminated here and all the passengers are further delaying the East Midlands in to Lime Street. It is a farce.

Every shift I've had that's interfaced with them this week has been a total farce. They've become a bit of a joke and not a very good one.

Carlisle · 30 Oct 2019

Im getting the impression similar to GTR
2 years previously certain posters appear as almost on commission to criticise TOCs their union might have currently fallen out with.

LowLevel · 30 Oct 2019

Carlisle said:
Im getting the impression similar to GTR
2 years previously certain posters appear almost on commission to criticise TOCs their union might have currently fallen out with.

I'm quite happy to critique or praise anyone that deserves it :lol:

Abandoning chunks of your network while failing to ensure your control is adequately staffed seems to be reasonable grounds for criticism to me, no? They're up the creek even without traincrew shortages as they have a totally unworkable service plan. Cross Country went as far as posting in their incident reports yesterday that WMR's failure to get a handle on running the service mucked half the country up.

How on earth can you get away with centralising a control and security team then in the middle of mass disruption simply declare that 'customer information screens and disruption messages will not be updated for the rest of the day, if stations are able to assist by managing their screens can they please do so' !?!

Lovely ideas - absolutely appalling implementation.

AndrewE · 30 Oct 2019

Carlisle said:
Im getting the impression similar to GTR
2 years previously certain posters appear as almost on commission to criticise TOCs their union might have currently fallen out with.

Do you think LNWR shouldn't be criticised for this behaviour? I'm only a customer but I think they deserve it, especially for starting trains short at S Parkway and not warning passengers so that they can get out there in time

Dr Hoo · 30 Oct 2019

LowLevel said:
I'm quite happy to critique or praise anyone that deserves it

Abandoning chunks of your network while failing to ensure your control is adequately staffed seems to be reasonable grounds for criticism to me, no? They're up the creek even without traincrew shortages as they have a totally unworkable service plan. Cross Country went as far as posting in their incident reports yesterday that WMR's failure to get a handle on running the service mucked half the country up.

How on earth can you get away with centralising a control and security team then in the middle of mass disruption simply declare that 'customer information screens and disruption messages will not be updated for the rest of the day, if stations are able to assist by managing their screens can they please do so' !?!

Lovely ideas - absolutely appalling implementation.

In the interests of wider understanding could you flesh out what the changes to the control arrangements have been? Is it a case of experienced staff not wanting to move, perhaps?
It would also be interesting to know what the ‘security team’ does (unless you would then have to shoot us all).

AM9 · 30 Oct 2019

AndrewE said:
Do you think LNWR shouldn't be criticised for this behaviour? I'm only a customer but I think they deserve it, especially for starting trains short at S Parkway and not warning passengers so that they can get out there in time

Having just dipped into this thread, (I occasionally use LNR to get to the NW cheaply) I can see that there are quite fair complaints abouit terminating/starting short at LPY. What surprises me is that nobody has suggested a delay repay application as a result of a TOC decision to change from the advertised service. Early this year I managed to get a 100% refund because of confusion on announcements at Milton Keynes even though the train ran to it's published timetable. Surely this is a similar situation, even if the switch only becomes apparent just after purchasing a ticket at Lime St.
Of course the imnconvenience would still occur, but frequent claims might make LNR consider their options when confronted with disruption.

LowLevel · 30 Oct 2019

Dr Hoo said:
In the interests of wider understanding could you flesh out what the changes to the control arrangements have been? Is it a case of experienced staff not wanting to move, perhaps?
It would also be interesting to know what the ‘security team’ does (unless you would then have to shoot us all).

It was carried over from London Midland in fairness but there was a significant change in manning at West Midlands stations a few years back with staffing heavily reduced having for decades been first train to last. Part of this was an assurance that the stations would be monitored by CCTV - the customer information and security desks were apparently both unmanned in the midst of yesterday's turmoil.

Carlisle · 30 Oct 2019

LowLevel said:
IHow on earth can you get away with centralising a control and security team then in the middle of mass disruption simply declare that 'customer information screen and disruption messages will not be updated.

Sorry didn’t intend to be rude,
It sounds from what your saying many of the problems for a TOC like WMR/ LNWR are attributable to a combination of over complex timetables, capacity problems & train & station staffing regimes that haven’t fundamentally been changed in several decades to better reflect the modern railway, but have (probably wrongly) all been allowed to be tinkered with here and there simply to save a few quid :frown:

LNWR service from Liverpool to Birmingham and London.

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