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TfL staff nominee pass validity and potential for confusion

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bramling

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Moderator note: Split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/unknowing-misuse-of-staff-nominee-pass-so-worried.193922/
... as a holder of a staff pass and now a retired staff pass holder the rules are not at all complex. They're valid on all TfL services and a very restricted list of national rail services, end of.

Things may be simple to those in the know, but to someone who isn’t necessarily clued up with railways (as many nominees will be) I can see how there might be scope for confusion.

For example the pass will be valid on an Overground service from Southbury, but not on an overground service from nearly Waltham Cross, notwithstanding whether both accept Oyster. Makes perfect sense to many of us on here, but is it so obvious to your average user?

I’m fortunate that most of my encounters with railway ticketing are as simple as going to a booking office and asking for a return to X, or for some journeys filling in a day and month inside a square, however recently buying a ticket on behalf of someone else I found a distinctly tedious experience, especially working out whether an off-peak or peak ticket was needed. I can well see how someone could get things wrong.
 
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Goldfish62

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Things may be simple to those in the know, but to someone who isn’t necessarily clued up with railways (as many nominees will be) I can see how there might be scope for confusion.

For example the pass will be valid on an Overground service from Southbury, but not on an overground service from nearly Waltham Cross, notwithstanding whether both accept Oyster. Makes perfect sense to many of us on here, but is it so obvious to your average user?

I’m fortunate that most of my encounters with railway ticketing are as simple as going to a booking office and asking for a return to X, or for some journeys filling in a day and month inside a square, however recently buying a ticket on behalf of someone else I found a distinctly tedious experience, especially working out whether an off-peak or peak ticket was needed. I can well see how someone could get things wrong.
Sorry, I don't agree at all. The nominee pass is a (controversial) very useful free perk and it's 100% the responsibility of the employee and the user to know the T&Cs. If you can't be bothered to find these out then you shouldn't have the pass.

The T&Cs are available on the TfL intranet and given that the nominee must live at the same address as the employee there really is no argument that the conditions are not available.
 

ComUtoR

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I can well see how someone could get things wrong.

Ticketing is a quagmire indeed but staff are held to account just as everyone else. A Driver at my depot has a gross misconduct charge because his partner used her pass for commuting (hence my earlier thought process) Thankfully the only punishments I have heard of when a pass has been misused has been confiscation.

Twice a year when my passes drop through the letter box they are accompanied by a cover letter stating that it is the passholders responsibility to read and understand the terms and conditions of the pass. My ex partner applied for a job at TfL. The terms and conditions of the pass were sent to her with the job application.

Holding a pass for 10yrs and not knowing the terms and conditions will be a struggle to prove.
 

jumble

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Sorry, I don't agree at all. The nominee pass is a (controversial) very useful free perk and it's 100% the responsibility of the employee and the user to know the T&Cs. If you can't be bothered to find these out then you shouldn't have the pass.

The T&Cs are available on the TfL intranet and given that the nominee must live at the same address as the employee there really is no argument that the conditions are not available.

Seconded
I am about to receive a very useful TFL pass and I can assure you that I will take the trouble to be crystal clear where and when it is valid.
It really is not difficult to check and I don't find anything confusion at all
The same sort who don't check are those who go abroad with a single bank card and then complain their holiday is ruined because it did not work
 

30907

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For example the pass will be valid on an Overground service from Southbury, but not on an overground service from nearly Waltham Cross, notwithstanding whether both accept Oyster. Makes perfect sense to many of us on here, but is it so obvious to your average user?
Though I would expect a TfL staff member to know the difference between an Overground branded train at an Overground branded station (the roundel is distinctive and very well known down south) and a service that runs overground but is provided by someone else.
BTW the OP travelled from a station some way beyond the LO limit.
 

matt_world2004

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In terms of services you can use your staff pass on, its probably easier to understand; if you have been told it can only be used on certain services to only use it on services displayed on a basic tube map. until you know the exact validity on non TfL contracted national rail services.
 

bramling

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Though I would expect a TfL staff member to know the difference between an Overground branded train at an Overground branded station (the roundel is distinctive and very well known down south) and a service that runs overground but is provided by someone else.

I wouldn’t. Many staff don’t really give a stuff about what other services TFL run, especially bearing in mind the various TFL rail operations concentrate on specific areas. Those who deal with ticketing matters or are routinely passenger facing may well know the score, but that doesn’t apply to everyone. Indeed many staff live outside London and rarely travel around London except for immediate work purposes.

Naturally they *should* give a stuff if their nominees are using a nominee pass.
 

bionic

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I have to agree that the T&Cs of a TFL staff pass are pretty straightforward and not confusing at all. Valid on all TFL services and very little else.

I remember once travelling from Norwood Junction to Honor Oak Park with a friend who had a TFL nominee pass from her husband. She could get the Overground train for free and I could get the Southern for free but we couldn't travel on the same train together for free. It wasn't confusing. The temptation to chance it is strong but you are bang to rights if you get caught by a jobsworth RPI.
 

najaB

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The temptation to chance it is strong but you are bang to rights if you get caught by a jobsworth RPI.
Your post was going so well and then you spoiled it with "jobsworth".

Since when has applying simple rules to a free benefit to avoid one person ruining it for everyone a negative thing?
 

bionic

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Your post was going so well and then you spoiled it with "jobsworth".

Since when has applying simple rules to a free benefit to avoid one person ruining it for everyone a negative thing?

Ok, it looks like I'm going to have to spell this out...

I understand what the rules are. I also am aware that there is an unspoken and unofficial understanding between railway staff. In my experience most railway staff will permit other railway staff to use their travel facilities where they are not, strictly speaking, supposed to. Most times it will be fine, but there are enough barrier staff, guards and RPIs who do get funny about it (and let me stress that these people, while in a minority, are not doing anything wrong by enforcing the rules) to know to always buy a priv.

On the other side of the coin, many is the time I've shown a priv and the person checking the ticket has been incredulous that I bothered to do so, telling me I'm mad and they would have let me travel for free.

I don't work checking tickets any more, but back when I did, I was told (unofficially) in the training school and (off the record) by my manager and colleagues that all railway staff and police should be allowed through without question regardless of which passes they held.

I referred to these members of staff that go around enforcing staff travel restrictions to the letter as "jobsworths" because thats what I think they are. I buy tickets so it doesn't affect me, but it I still hold a personal opinion about such people which I am entitled to.
 

matt_world2004

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Staff who misuse staff travel facilities are stealing from their colleagues and should be pulled by revenue imho.
 

bionic

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Staff who misuse staff travel facilities are stealing from their colleagues and should be pulled by revenue imho.

For what it's worth, I think there is a big difference between someone asking a guard if they can get on their train for the odd leisure journey and someone knowingly misusing their travel facilities on a daily commute and trying to avoid detection.

Can you please elaborate on what you mean by "stealing from their colleagues" though please. I don't understand what you mean by that.
 

matt_world2004

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For what it's worth, I think there is a big difference between someone asking a guard if they can get on their train for the odd leisure journey and someone knowingly misusing their travel facilities on a daily commute and trying to avoid detection.

Can you please elaborate on what you mean by "stealing from their colleagues" though please. I don't understand what you mean by that.
If they are required to pay for a service, and they don't they are stealing from those who provide the service who are their colleagues in other TOCs.

Seeking permission to travel from an authorised person is different
 
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Brissle Girl

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If they are required to pay for a service, and they don't they are stealing from those who provide the service who are their colleagues in other TOCs.
You might be stealing from your colleagues' employer, but you're not stealing from the colleagues who provide that service.

Besides, there's no suggestion here that it was anything but an innocent mistake by the OP (albeit that we might suggest that she understood the T&C's of her pass somewhat better than she did.) So talk about "misusing their travel facilities and trying to avoid detection" suggests we have strayed off topic and not in a helpful way to the person we're trying to assist.
 

matt_world2004

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You might be stealing from your colleagues' employer, but you're not stealing from the colleagues who provide that service.

Besides, there's no suggestion here that it was anything but an innocent mistake by the OP (albeit that we might suggest that she understood the T&C's of her pass somewhat better than she did.) So talk about "misusing their travel facilities and trying to avoid detection" suggests we have strayed off topic and not in a helpful way to the person we're trying to assist.
I was replying to bionic, for suggesting that RPIs who enforce policies against staff misusing travel facilities were being "jobsworths", and yes since staffing levels and pay/benefits are determined in part by the revenue the company makes, and reported usage of certain stations, they are stealing from their colleagues.
 

Islineclear3_1

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This is getting silly and OT now.

At the end of the day does anyone really care? I don't.

Is it really harming someone else if a member of staff travels for free on another TOC's service for leisure if that TOC serves the same stations/route?
 

RJ

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The TfL staff nominee pass is a very generous unrestricted benefit. Yet there are always people who don't appreciate this and abuse it to try and get more out of it. Assuming it is valid on a service when no veritable source would have stated that comes under that in my view.

I've got one of those staff passes and had a pass sorted for my nominee. Before handing it over I made it crystal clear, under no circumstances must it be misused in any way. Because of the part of the world we're in I made it very clear when handing it over that it was not to be used on Southern services on the TfL ELL route and advised that I should be asked where it comes to queries on validity. Never had a problem.

Leisure/commuting is irrelevant. TfL nominee pass rules are different from TOC nominee facilities rules.

The reality is, this part of the world is dominated by DOO services. There are no guards to authorise free travel on trains. That's the way it is so everybody is required to have a valid ticket. TfL RPIs have been known to do TOCNE staff for using their Priv on U Zone tickets and TOC RPIs have been known to do TfL pass holders for misusing their pass to gain access to services it isn't valid on. Just because there's nobody there to grant discretionary free travel, that doesn't mean it's right to just take it. Not everyone sees things that way however and those who act on that leave themselves open to the consequences.

Some people might see the reporting of people for pass misuse as snitching but the railways employ people to clamp down on this sort of behaviour and they do not deserve to be referred to as jobsworths by other railway staff. Especially as I've encountered some unpleasant nominee card holders who come to the ticket office and demand what they are not in any way entitled to.

I don't envy the judgement of those who think it is worth the risk to save a few pounds a week.
 
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matt_world2004

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I see the deliberate misuse of nominee passes as stealing from my employer and considering I have had a 10% paycut this year you are not going to get any sympathy from me
 

RJ

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This is getting silly and OT now.

At the end of the day does anyone really care? I don't.

Is it really harming someone else if a member of staff travels for free on another TOC's service for leisure if that TOC serves the same stations/route?

If there is an official arrangement in place then of course not.

If there isn't then anyone who takes it on themselves to break the rules without authority to do so leaves themselves open to the consequences. It's worth remembering that a lot of people aren't entitled to any free travel and so if that privilege is given, the limits of it should be respected unless authority is granted for extra benefit.
 
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Wallsendmag

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How can staff expect passengers to abide by the rules if they openly flout them themselves. I travel daily on a journey where there are two other TOCs running and I only ever travel with one of those if ticket acceptance is in place.
 

Mag_seven

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This is getting silly and OT now.

At the end of the day does anyone really care? I don't.

Is it really harming someone else if a member of staff travels for free on another TOC's service for leisure if that TOC serves the same stations/route?

Yes it is important - it's an abuse of privilege. Don't forget many railway staff don't get any free/reduced rate rail travel at all. How must they feel when they see rail staff who do get the facility boasting about how they abuse it?
 

ComUtoR

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There is an element of 'professional courtesy' involved. A friend of mine worked on the buses and he would let coppers on for free. They have no right to free travel but a quick flash of their badge and they would be let on. Same thing happens at the gateline, a quick flash of a badge and they get waved through. There is however, an acceptance that if things went wrong or they were needed, they would step in.

As a Driver, when I'm in uniform, I always let the other Driver know that I'm passing. Same if I see a Guard. They understand that I am there and will help if required. This means that if I'm sitting in first class, they tend to turn a blind eye. This also extends to when I'm in my free time too. I'll give a wave to the Driver and a nod to the on board staff with an understanding that if needed, they can count on me to help where I can.

This also applies when traveling on another TOC. Whenever I have shown my staff pass or they have noted that I have a PRIV, I get treated differently. Knowing that you have staff on board as a passenger can give a sense of relief to onboard staff. You have someone who you don't have to worry about and also someone you can rely on if needed. You also get to have a quick chinwag too.

Professional courtesy is a benefit and an unspoken bond between staff in any industry. But... I do see a line drawn between a courtesy and an abuse or privilege.
 
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