I wonder if it will eventually be a 195 as its first journey of the day is the 06:37 Leeds to Chester and the morning Ellesmere Port to Leeds is now a 195.
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New Chester to Leeds service
- Thread starter absolutelymilk
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I think I’ll have to completely give up on this service. The 07:29 from Helsby departed at 07:26 as I was coming down the stairs from the footbridge then spent 5 minutes sitting at a signal just outside the station. It was a 150 as well. Northern are the most useless operator I’ve ever experienced.
Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
How many minutes do you normally arrive prior to the departure of the train?
Usually 5 but there were roadworks so I was delayed for a couple of minutes. I would have run for it if I’d known but I thought I’d be fine being three minutes early. There was another guy in the same boat too. Think I’ll have to go back to driving as I can’t take this kind of stress. These new trains were meant to make things better but they seem to have made things worse on every line where they’ve been introduced from what I’ve read on these forums.
Whisky Papa
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RTT shows it as having originated from Ellesmere Port 5 minutes late, arriving Helsby 0727 and departing 0733 which presumably was the signal check you refer to. I wonder if the planned 3 minute dwell at Helsby caught the conductor out - "I'm running late so must make time up", not realising it had already been made up? Not a justification, mind you.
EDIT - Sorry, just realised I'd looked at the 16th Oct. Today's RTT shows it arriving on time and leaving 0732, which is still the signal check. Not much use if this is beyond the platform of course, and means it might prove difficult to prove the early running to Northern as I assume TRUST has recorded a late departure too? I still suspect the dwell time is not being noticed by the conductor, however.
I always used to go out and chat to the conductor on one mid-evening Manchester Victoria service that had an odd 4 minute dwell at Todmorden, otherwise some of them would just load up and away. As I wanted to shortly close up the ticket office, the last thing I wanted was anybody missing it and having to wait half an hour.
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A passenger shouldn't need to turn up at 0726 in order to catch a train advertised to depart at 0729. The WTT departure time is 0729.5, so you could say that it actually departed 3.5 minutes early.
It's very easy for a crew to inadvertently depart a timing point early, especially if there's slack in a schedule at a point where it wouldn't be expected. In this instance, four minutes recovery time at Helsby, only ten minutes running time down the line from the train's originating point, strikes me as a recipe for disaster. Is the conductor responsible for time?
I'm struggling to get my head around this idea of the train being held at a signal 'just' outside the station. Surely, if the starter signal was at danger, the train shouldn't have moved at all, and, even after moving, wouldn't most of the train still be in the platform?
I don't know what your ticketing arrangements are, mrcaa, but you'd clearly meet the conditions for Delay Repay, for what it's worth. Another thing which might be of limited value, I see that your afternoon train is currently booked for a 195, although only a 2-car (195001).
According to Realtime Trains, the 0726 actually departed Helsby at 0732, which shows what a distorted picture tracking can often give.
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I imagine it was what you said if it was late out of EP. It's supposed to arrive at 07:25 and depart at 07:29 but I'm usually there around 07:24 and it doesn't normally arrive until 07:27 and depart until 07:32 (which was when the signal cleared today too). The guard probably thought the arrival time was the departure time and despatched it early. This kind of thing compounded with the frequency of evening cancellations though makes it impossible to use for a commute.
Note the amendment to Whisky Papa's post.
The train stopped just after the Lower Rake Lane bridge and the Encirc freight train came through in the opposite direction straight after so maybe it wanted to clear the points before that happened. It didn't move until the freight was long gone though so why it couldn't have waited at the platform I don't know. I was tempted to ask the signaller what had happened but he seemed too busy flipping levers to be distracted (can't believe they still do it that way in 2019). I sent a complaint to Northern rather than a delay repay hoping they'd look into the details rather than going by RTT. I took a photo of the train beyond the bridge at 07:28 to prove it wasn't at the platform then.
Old Yard Dog
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Another month gone and still no timetable posters at Ellesmere Port. I've written to Northern again and await their response.
There has been some publicity in the local press about the introduction of class 195s on Chester - Leeds but no mention of the fact that there are also limited services to Ellesmere Port.
Llandudno
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I suspect that a Northern don’t want to promote this service as it seems from posters on here that the service is hopelessly unreliable.
more passengers = more complaints = more compensation = more bad publicity
absolutelymilk
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Stood at Chester waiting for the 11.24, but the incoming service seems to have sat down just after Mickle Trafford.
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y63491/2019-10-26/detailed
Apparently due to a signal failure just outside the station, so can't be blamed on the 195s!
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y63491/2019-10-26/detailed
Apparently due to a signal failure just outside the station, so can't be blamed on the 195s!
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Only 61 minutes late in the end. Bet you’re glad you weren’t on that one!
absolutelymilk
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Indeed, I've gone home and am now waiting until it's fixed before I try again
There was a double class 195 working (2 x 3-car) on the Calder Valley today. This should have been the 12.24 Chester - Leeds, actually started from Warrington. Later it lost 14 minutes between Mytholmroyd and Bradford. I wasn't on it so don't know what happened, or why it was a six-car train. I assume one unit locked out of use.
Flinn Reed
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Apologies if there is a more suitable thread for this query - With the introduction of new Northern connect fast services, wouldn't these have been better placed under the TPE franchise?
If they were fast I would say arguably yes but they are really semi-fast and therefore probably better not with TPE. That said the whole Northern Connect is proving to be a bit half baked (says he generously!)
I think part of the point too is some interurban fast services within the Northern franchise that actually make money!
Phil from Mon
Member
It was half an hour late on Monday too
CheerDanielita
On Moderation
I have seen a 195 running the 16:03 to Ellesmere Port from Bradford, there’s not a frequent service and national rail show usually a journey over an hour from Helsby making a direct service taking 12 minutes great yet never publicised and only in seeing it on screens on departure boards do you know a train even goes there and not good for anyone in Leeds wanting to go there direct for museums.
LNW-GW Joint
Veteran Member
Leeds-Ellesmere Port via Liverpool is 3-5 minutes faster than the sole train via Helsby, and are every half hour through the day.
Fares are the same unless you are on one of Northern's Advances.
Fares are the same unless you are on one of Northern's Advances.
I see that, according to 'Realtime Trains', the Leeds - Chester and Leeds - Manchester Victoria services are going to continue to be interworked after the December timetable change. Has there been a change of plan, or was it never intended that they should be split? It always did seem an odd idea.
An odd idea because splitting them would cost a unit at a time when Northern are short of trains!
superkev
Established Member
Sat at Sowerby bridge and the services a total shambles today with lots cancellations an late running.
Northern incredibly report "minor disruption"
K
Northern incredibly report "minor disruption"
K
Major now. Mostly saying no driver.
The shambles with this Leeds-Chester service continues today, the 0539 Leeds-Chester planned to run with 158759 was this morning cancelled at the very last minute, despite having a full crew it was cancelled because the drivers booked return working from Manchester Victoria later this morning was a 195 a type he was not yet trained on. The crew were as frustrated as the passengers and unfortunately they get the grief from disgruntled passengers.
LNW-GW Joint
Veteran Member
The return 0719 from Manchester Victoria (1E50) was also cancelled.
They did find a train/crew for the services between Victoria and Chester.
A crew would have been detailed for the Victoria to Chester section, come what may. As to finding a train, it does look as though the stock off the Chester - Leeds (cancelled at Victoria) was used for the (delayed) 0707 Victoria - Chester. Platform continuity doesn't match, but timings do.
Knowing of a problem by 0539, you would think a non-195 could have been sourced for a 0719 departure from Victoria*. 0719 on a Saturday is hardly 'peak', is it? It all adds to my feeling that Northern doesn't miss an opportunity to stop running trains.
* EDIT: 158759 could have been used.
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I agree, logic would of been to run 158759 as planned at 0539 but terminate at Manchester Vic, then swap the sets with the incoming Chester 195 retuning back to Chester and 158759 back to Leeds, the result would of meant both services run with most likely a 10-15 minute delay to each, which considering the delays/cancellations of recent weeks on the Calder Valley that would be near normal service.
There was no reason for the 0719 Leeds to be significantly delayed at all. Both trains could have used the same platform, and the set ex-Chester actually arrived at 0716.5. (Booked 0717). To detrain the passengers, march those transferring up the platform and on to the waiting train shouldn't have taken a great deal more than 2.5 minutes. By way of comparison, the ex-Chester was turned around and sent off back to Chester in 3.25 minutes.
The 0707 Chester would have departed at the time it actually did, i.e. 0719.75.
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