First Group: General Discussion

Volvodart · 13 Oct 2019

One of the Chairman's roles is to liaise with the major shareholders. This is no different to what his predecessor did. It was some, at least,of the shareholders that wanted Martin to be appointed.

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markymark2000 · 14 Oct 2019

If TPE is loss making, why the heck have they kept it. Can't they just hand it back like Virgin did and then it goes to the Operator of Last Resort.

freetoview33 · 14 Oct 2019

markymark2000 said:
If TPE is loss making, why the heck have they kept it. Can't they just hand it back like Virgin did and then it goes to the Operator of Last Resort.

Because then they'd loose GWR which is profitable.

winston270twm · 14 Oct 2019

Volvodart said:
One of the Chairman's roles is to liaise with the major shareholders. This is no different to what his predecessor did. It was some, at least,of the shareholders that wanted Martin to be appointed.

Yes, I see that.

Whilst Martin has now been appointed as FGP's Chairmain (was also a Coas candidate etc, etc ), he's experience predominantly lies in UK & European bus ops, that's the area the First Group want to exit (and are clearly struggling to sell on quickly) & the opp Coast wanted to keep....

richw · 14 Oct 2019

winston270twm said:
Yes, I see that.

Whilst Martin has now been appointed as FGP's Chairmain (was also a Coas candidate etc, etc ), he's experience predominantly lies in UK & European bus ops, that's the area the First Group want to exit (and are clearly struggling to sell on quickly) & the opp Coast wanted to keep....

Uk bus is profitable which I think may be why Coast want to keep it.
Possibly why a separation seems favourable in the more recent announcements?

Rod Harrison · 14 Oct 2019

richw said:
Uk bus is profitable which I think may be why Coast want to keep it.
Possibly why a separation seems favourable in the more recent announcements?

Saw an article in Buses that West Yorkshire Combined Authority were exploring how they could participate in the sell off of First West Yorkshire. Not seen anything suggesting a sell off.

winston270twm · 14 Oct 2019

richw said:
Uk bus is profitable which I think may be why Coast want to keep it.
Possibly why a separation seems favourable in the more recent announcements?

Coast wanted to keep UK bus, ditch UK Rail & separate the First US ops (Transit / Student / Greyhound etc) which is far more profitable than UK Bus.

DragonEast · 21 Oct 2019

I don't want to be a drama queen but I can't see anything to get excited about. I'd have thought the biggest problem for First has been their unrealistic valuations which historically have made it a struggle to sell anything, most recently exhibited in the recent Manchester sales. Clearly I'd have thought that's been for shareholders "benefit", hence the constant re-iteration of "getting the best deal for our shareholders" like the magic mantra? Yep, we know it's a truism, but it it isn't the magic incantation to deliver success like manna from heaven. At best it'll keep (as it has) shareholders off their backs temporarily, until they come up with something else, and they've run out of road. Perhaps they've been meandering aimlessly for too long already.

So if there's an acceptance of the write offs necessary for them to get out of First Bus (and Greyhound) wouldn't that be "a good thing"? It's probably taken some experienced independent people on the Board to get the message through, given the story they've been given in the past. I'd have thought Martin with his experience would have quickly seen that the Coast "strategy" wouldn't work, however attractive to the bus enthusiasts.

Put bluntly the message I get from what the passengers say (pretty universally) and my feeling of the response from the competition to First Bus is "just go" and we'll sort things out. The shareholders just need to agree. It shouldn't be hard. They've tried everything else, without success. What no one is willing to do is pay megabucks for the privilege. The money needs spending on the buses, not into First's pockets. They've done nothing to earn it, frankly. Whether First Group can survive is a different question. Whether they should is yet another question. For another country and a different industry.

The public and the passengers will be the last to find out what is happening, whatever. Nothing new. A First tradition. Before anyone points it out I know it's not a statutory duty. Keeping your customers onside is the key to success; that's all.

TheGrandWazoo · 21 Oct 2019

DragonEast said:
I don't want to be a drama queen but I can't see anything to get excited about. I'd have thought the biggest problem for First has been their unrealistic valuations which historically have made it a struggle to sell anything, most recently exhibited in the recent Manchester sales. Clearly I'd have thought that's been for shareholders "benefit", hence the constant re-iteration of "getting the best deal for our shareholders" like the magic mantra? Yep, we know it's a truism, but it it isn't the magic incantation to deliver success like manna from heaven. At best it'll keep (as it has) shareholders off their backs temporarily, until they come up with something else, and they've run out of road. Perhaps they've been meandering aimlessly for too long already.

So if there's an acceptance of the write offs necessary for them to get out of First Bus (and Greyhound) wouldn't that be "a good thing"? It's probably taken some experienced independent people on the Board to get the message through, given the story they've been given in the past. I'd have thought Martin with his experience would have quickly seen that the Coast "strategy" wouldn't work, however attractive to the bus enthusiasts.

Put bluntly the message I get from what the passengers say (pretty universally) and my feeling of the response from the competition to First Bus is "just go" and we'll sort things out. The shareholders just need to agree. It shouldn't be hard. They've tried everything else, without success. What no one is willing to do is pay megabucks for the privilege. The money needs spending on the buses, not into First's pockets. They've done nothing to earn it, frankly. Whether First Group can survive is a different question. Whether they should is yet another question. For another country and a different industry.

The public and the passengers will be the last to find out what is happening, whatever. Nothing new. A First tradition. Before anyone points it out I know it's not a statutory duty. Keeping your customers onside is the key to success; that's all.

Do you just suddenly wake up and come out with “stuff”?

You blithely talk about unrealistic valuations and write downs but if you do that, you still lose money.

Also, your comments on Manchester are partly inaccurate (they sold two businesses and a third pulled out for their own reasons) and contradictory.

I have no insight or inside line but I’d bet there’s a lot going on. However, First haven’t deigned to put it on this forum.

carlberry · 21 Oct 2019

TheGrandWazoo said:
Do you just suddenly wake up and come out with “stuff”?

You blithely talk about unrealistic valuations and write downs but if you do that, you still lose money.

Also, your comments on Manchester are partly inaccurate (they sold two businesses and a third pulled out for their own reasons) and contradictory.

I have no insight or inside line but I’d bet there’s a lot going on. However, First haven’t deigned to put it on this forum.

To my mind the recent Manchester sales appear to be genius moves. Two businesses sold yet (if the current consultation document becomes reality) both of those businesses are now only worth what TfM are willing to pay for the depot.

158756 · 21 Oct 2019

carlberry said:
To my mind the recent Manchester sales appear to be genius moves. Two businesses sold yet (if the current consultation document becomes reality) both of those businesses are now only worth what TfM are willing to pay for the depot.

Exactly. And if the system works as intended First are in no worse a position than Rotala or Go Ahead to bid for contracts if they want. The only snag is they haven't got rid of Oldham, which is now worthless except the depot, and probably completely worthless until TfGM actually come along with an offer.

bussnapperwm · 22 Oct 2019

The Diamond/Go North West/First Manchester ticket agreement is ending Jan 2020

https://www.diamondbuses.com/news/nw-ticketing-agreement/

This summer there were a number of ownership changes within the bus network in North Manchester. To make sure these changes went smoothly for customers, a temporary arrangement was put in place for tickets issued by Diamond Bus North West, Go North West and First to be accepted on each company’s buses.

Now that each company’s network of services in North Manchester is clearly established, there is no longer a need for this arrangement. As such, with effect from 1 January 2020, an individual operator’s tickets will only be valid on that operator’s buses.

Passengers who currently travel on Diamond North West services using tickets and passes purchased on-bus or via apps owned by First or GNW, are requested to plan their future purchases directly from Diamond, as First & GNW purchased tickets will no longer be valid on our services from 1st January. Likewise, Diamond North West tickets will not be valid on First and GNW services from this date.

If you have a period pass, which will expire after the agreement end-date and will no longer be suitable for your travel needs after 1st January, you are advised to contact the issuing provider of your pass.

For those customers who wish to use more than one operator’s services, there is a full range of great value tickets available through System One which are valid on all bus services in Greater Manchester. For more information see systemonetravel.co.uk.

Goldfish62 · 24 Oct 2019

bussnapperwm said:
The Diamond/Go North West/First Manchester ticket agreement is ending Jan 2020

https://www.diamondbuses.com/news/nw-ticketing-agreement/

Inevitable, but excellent timing for proponents of franchising.

Bus Lightyear · 26 Oct 2019

I hope I'm posting this question in the appropriate thread.

Are there any buses still wearing the original First 'Barbie' livery? Or have they all been either repainted into their new liveries or disposed of?

richw · 26 Oct 2019

Bus Lightyear said:
I hope I'm posting this question in the appropriate thread.

Are there any buses still wearing the original First 'Barbie' livery? Or have they all been either repainted into their new liveries or disposed of?

about a dozen tridents in Cornwall.

awsnews · 26 Oct 2019

Bus Lightyear said:
I hope I'm posting this question in the appropriate thread.

Are there any buses still wearing the original First 'Barbie' livery? Or have they all been either repainted into their new liveries or disposed of?

Still 3 B10BLEs at Dumbarton, 61604, 61609 and 61653, although 61609 doesn't seem to get out much.

Andyh82 · 26 Oct 2019

I think First WoE still have a number of single decks in barbie

I know Norwich had some presidents that were in barbie livery but with Olympia style branding (fleetnames, skylines etc)

cactustwirly · 26 Oct 2019

Bus Lightyear said:
I hope I'm posting this question in the appropriate thread.

Are there any buses still wearing the original First 'Barbie' livery? Or have they all been either repainted into their new liveries or disposed of?

Still a few Eclipses and Geminis running around in Leicester

TheGrandWazoo · 26 Oct 2019

Andyh82 said:
I think First WoE still have a number of single decks in barbie

I know Norwich had some presidents that were in barbie livery but with Olympia style branding (fleetnames, skylines etc)

First West of England have a fair number of barbie liveried vehicles with a number of deckers (B7TLs and some recently acquired Tridents) plus Solos, Darts and Eclipses looking very tired. The Darts and Solos have never been painted since delivery 14 years ago.

A number of ex Midland Red e300s still retain barbie in Potteries (though they have lent some of those to West of England too)

Volvodart · 26 Oct 2019

Aberdeen should be free of Barbie soon with the cuts tomorrow assuming the 3 Wright Renowns do get withdrawn and that leaves 69254 which should be the next to go for a repaint in the next week or two. The last coach in the express/Park and Ride version of Barbie has just been withdrawn.

James101 · 26 Oct 2019

Potteries have a reasonable number of Transbus E300s still in Barbie along with pet ALX400 32081 which has recently been repainted, retaining original Barbie.

83G/84D · 26 Oct 2019

richw said:
about a dozen tridents in Cornwall.

Along with a few Solo’s.

Bus Lightyear · 26 Oct 2019

Thanks for the replies folks. I last noticed a Barbie bus in Glasgow a few months back and it was one of First Midland Bluebird's Volvo or Scania Eclipses. I was wondering if we finally saw the end of Barbie but that's obviously not the case as mentioned in the replies. If I ventured out to Stirling or Falkirk for the day I would probably notice more.

NorthernSpirit · 26 Oct 2019

Andyh82 said:
I think First WoE still have a number of single decks in barbie

I know Norwich had some presidents that were in barbie livery but with Olympia style branding (fleetnames, skylines etc)

Most I've seen that are in Barbie still are usually found in Bath but I have seen the odd one in Leeds and Huddersfield, the examples I've seen in the latter two places may have by now been painted into Olympia.

noddingdonkey · 27 Oct 2019

A while since I've seen a Barbie livery in Huddersfield. A random cascaded single decker in Barbie turned up a few months ago and was repainted in short order.

Andyh82 · 27 Oct 2019

Yes First West Yorks wiped out barbie years ago, when the last Olympians were withdrawn. It was reintroduced to the fleet more recently with some cascaded eclipse single decks, but they’ve now gone as well.

TheGrandWazoo · 27 Oct 2019

Andyh82 said:
Yes First West Yorks wiped out barbie years ago, when the last Olympians were withdrawn. It was reintroduced to the fleet more recently with some cascaded eclipse single decks, but they’ve now gone as well.

Has B7L 66345 gone now? That was all white but with the front still in Barbie.

First West Yorkshire and First Essex are pretty swift at repainting offending vehicles. First West of England have usually resisted repainting until absolutely necessary (awaiting for them to be despatched elsewhere and letting the receiving OpCo do it).

Volvodart · 14 Nov 2019

Not much of an update in the half year's results:-

https://otp.tools.investis.com/generic/regulatory-story.aspx?newsid=1344880&cid=858

We have undertaken a significant amount of work to develop structural alternatives for separating First Bus which, as previously noted, involves a number of regulatory, pension, operational and stakeholder considerations. In parallel, we continue to actively address the cost base of First Bus through a comprehensive efficiency programme. The benefits of this programme will be more evident in the second half. Recent political commitments to increase funding for local bus services and innovation are also encouraging. As a result, we have greater visibility of the further improvements in the financial performance of First Bus that we intend to deliver prior to any launch of a formal sale process in 2020.

They have taken another £124.4 m hit on Greyhound, the sale of which "is well advanced; discussions ongoing with bidders".

There was also another £59.3 m North America insurance claims provision deduction in the profit and loss account.

Goldfish62 · 14 Nov 2019

83G/84D said:
Along with a few Solo’s.

The Solos are apparently programmed in for repaint and all the Kernow barbie Tridents are off soon.

winston270twm · 14 Nov 2019

Volvodart said:
Not much of an update in the half year's results:-

https://otp.tools.investis.com/generic/regulatory-story.aspx?newsid=1344880&cid=858

They have taken another £124.4 m hit on Greyhound, the sale of which "is well advanced; discussions ongoing with bidders".

There was also another £59.3 m North America insurance claims provision deduction in the profit and loss account.

The LSE is clearly impressed with FGP's results, shares are currently marked down -20% to just over a £1/share.

First Group: General Discussion

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