Jorge Da Silva
Established Member
According to the latest issue of Modern Railways November 2019 on CrossCountry getting Class 221. Page 47
Quote from Modern Railways. Any thoughts
Quote from Modern Railways. Any thoughts
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DfT and CrossCountry rule out surplus HST’s as a capacity relief
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Mitchell Hurd
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HST's won't last forever so I think HST's should be used on a temporary basis til new trains are procured.
More HST's at least mean Quiet Coaches - something I'll commit to every time I book a seat in Standard Class. In my view, this is a safer coach to be in if I'm on one of these trains after say 9pm / 21:30.
The DfT and XC not wanting to spend the money on surplus HST's is a classic example of profits before passengers I think!
More HST's at least mean Quiet Coaches - something I'll commit to every time I book a seat in Standard Class. In my view, this is a safer coach to be in if I'm on one of these trains after say 9pm / 21:30.
The DfT and XC not wanting to spend the money on surplus HST's is a classic example of profits before passengers I think!
anthony kelly
Member
X country Voyagers are on their last legs now so bye the time the221s arrive they will be in a evern worse state hsts have proved their Worth and could go on a lot longer
Mitchell Hurd
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Crikey - yes I've enjoyed many trips on these trains and have appreciated them properly since 2013/2014 (even though I'll always prefer an HST over a Voyager and 170) but I thought the Voyagers were in good condition.
How come they're on their last legs all of a sudden?
Mordac
Established Member
They're not, it's just hyperbole. They could use an internal refurb, as most trains their age could.
They could do with an external tidy up as well but agree that the sentiment they are life expired is hyperbole.
TH172341
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They are nowhere near life expired, very much a hyperbole....
Mechanically the Voyagers are fairly strong units and performance wise outperform a HST. They suffer due to the high demands placed on them due to the lack of slack in the fleet but considering the years of heavy use they have done pretty well.
They need an internal refurbishment combined with a form of midlife overhauling and would benefit from new stock supplementing them to give them slack in the diagramming. A repaint is desperately needed.
As a frequent user I simply find they need a bit of TLC. Chiltern style MK3 internal job with LED lighting would work well. Virgin started in the right direction with 221101 with the white LED external signs and repainted vestibule areas.
The HST modification project has been a challenge (only have to look at the mess on ScotRail right now) and they cannot keep to the timings the Voyagers can meet. All the XC franchise requires is a fleet of 30 or so 7 car bi modes (be it Hitachi or Bombardier) and that is it. It is frustrating that the franchise awarding has been kicked down the road whilst East Mids and West Coast still went ahead.
Mechanically the Voyagers are fairly strong units and performance wise outperform a HST. They suffer due to the high demands placed on them due to the lack of slack in the fleet but considering the years of heavy use they have done pretty well.
They need an internal refurbishment combined with a form of midlife overhauling and would benefit from new stock supplementing them to give them slack in the diagramming. A repaint is desperately needed.
As a frequent user I simply find they need a bit of TLC. Chiltern style MK3 internal job with LED lighting would work well. Virgin started in the right direction with 221101 with the white LED external signs and repainted vestibule areas.
The HST modification project has been a challenge (only have to look at the mess on ScotRail right now) and they cannot keep to the timings the Voyagers can meet. All the XC franchise requires is a fleet of 30 or so 7 car bi modes (be it Hitachi or Bombardier) and that is it. It is frustrating that the franchise awarding has been kicked down the road whilst East Mids and West Coast still went ahead.
DarloRich
Veteran Member
Shall we try not to be silly. They sre not even half way through thier life. They do need an overhaul but to suggest they are finished is wrong.
That is a letter from a reader with unattributed quotes. It is no different to a statement here
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
They are tatty as sin because XC are an awful TOC who can't be bothered spending any more than bare minimum on keeping them looking good. EMT's are the same. VTWC's by comparison are in far better nick. First Class in particular as it has had new seat foams and covers.
They certainly need a full seats-out mid-life refurb of the kind that was applied to TPE's 185s including a new reservations system, but with that done they should be OK enough for another 10-15 years at least. That said, a big issue is that they are particularly polluting diesels...
Class 170101
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The HSTs should be used as a stop gap until new trains can be delivered into service. However I would suggest that the LNER HSTs might be a better choice than the MML or GW versions.
cactustwirly
Established Member
Why is a Quiet coach safer? I've taken plenty of late night trains, and have never had a problem.
None of EMRs HSTs have a quiet coach, and nor do the XC Voyagers, so more HSTs doesn't necessarily mean more coaches.
The HSTs are life expired, and would take a serious investment to make them ready to operate post December 2019
Introduce a few extra HSTs to free up a few Voyagers to be used for doubling until the 221s from the West Coast franchise come free for redeployment or until the next XC franchisee sorts out their rolling stock strategy (be that just taking on say the 222s along with the West Coast 221s or something more substantial like an order of bi-modes for whole sale fleet replacement).
The HSTs are not a long term solution for CrossCountry but it makes a heck of a lot of sense to take on a few sets in the short term to help boost capacity. Though there is the issue of PRM-TSI compliance. Would the DfT be willing to sign off on a derogation of potentially several years? Would the ROSCO be willing to pay to have the modifications carried out to make them compliant with only guaranteed work for a few years?
The HSTs are not a long term solution for CrossCountry but it makes a heck of a lot of sense to take on a few sets in the short term to help boost capacity. Though there is the issue of PRM-TSI compliance. Would the DfT be willing to sign off on a derogation of potentially several years? Would the ROSCO be willing to pay to have the modifications carried out to make them compliant with only guaranteed work for a few years?
cactustwirly
Established Member
I'm guessing that the answers to those questions atm are no and no
Yes that's my very strong feeling as well. Which is a crying shame from the perspective of the majority of passengers but this is the world we find ourselves in.
I have split some speculative posts to: https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...sible-one-coach-should-be-metro-style.194195/
Just a gentle reminder that any ideas/suggestions should be posted in the Speculative Ideas section, thanks
Other threads active in the past 14 days relating to potential XC solutions include:
Just a gentle reminder that any ideas/suggestions should be posted in the Speculative Ideas section, thanks
Other threads active in the past 14 days relating to potential XC solutions include:
- https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...rdered-for-the-cross-country-franchise.162455
- https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/loco-hauled-for-crosscountry.168235/
- https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...-unnecessary-and-should-not-be-renewed.190108
- https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/ex-virgin-trains-voyagers-where-could-they-go-next.188848/
- https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/my-crosscountry-idea.193760/
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Jorge Da Silva
Established Member
Personally I think HSTs should be used as a capacity relief until new stock arrives but it looks like it could be 2024/25 before that happens. Even then Voyagers and Meridian could be used instead in 2022.
Are they? Compared to what?
If your taking stock out of service for refurb, you could investigate what could be done to the engines.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Compared to modern DMUs with higher Euro-spec engines or bi-modes that wouldn't even have the engines running in New St.
I suppose it might be feasible to fit additional exhaust-scrubbing equipment, yes.
Harbornite
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In last month’s issue of modern railways, there was a comparison of CO2 emissions for different units and Voyagers came out on top as the worst. Can’t remember the actual stats tho and I don’t have the article to hand.
43096
On Moderation
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By the time an order is placed, materials ordered, conversions completed etc on the HSTs it will be close to the time for the West Coast 221s and Midland 222s to be available for transfer. Pointless spending that money on 40+ year old trains for a short life expectancy.
And if anyone thinks XC can just put some unmodified HSTs into service, that’s not going to happen. I’d be amazed if DfT sanction PRM dispensations for them - it’s one thing for an existing TOC fleet, quite something else for non-compliant additional stock. XC also becomes an all power door operation from the end of the year, so doubtless the ORR would have something to say about bringing the risk of slam doors back into a TOC that has just got rid of them.
dk1
Veteran Member
XC have waited long enough already so a little longer will make no difference. Best to wait now rather than throwing more money at 40 year old stock regardless of what other TOCs have done.
a_c_skinner
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It does seem a shame that vehicles with only scrap value yet seemingly functioning reasonably cannot be added to a fleet that has used identical stock until about now. Only Alnmouth is self dispatch on the Leeds-Scotland section and although I use it I'd be happy to see it dropped for the duration, esp. as TPE is about to start running. The middle bit of XC, like TPE must be limiting ridership because of overcrowding. To an outsider there seems to be a "can't do" thread running through the industry, though I accept it isn't one agency's fault it is how the system has grown up.
I have moved the last post into this thread: https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...rowding-in-short-medium-and-long-term.194210/
Just a gentle reminder please...
Just a gentle reminder please...
..thanksI have split some speculative posts to: https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...sible-one-coach-should-be-metro-style.194195/
Just a gentle reminder that any ideas/suggestions should be posted in the Speculative Ideas section, thanks
Other threads active in the past 14 days relating to potential XC solutions include:
- https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...rdered-for-the-cross-country-franchise.162455
- https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/loco-hauled-for-crosscountry.168235/
- https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...-unnecessary-and-should-not-be-renewed.190108
- https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/ex-virgin-trains-voyagers-where-could-they-go-next.188848/
- https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/my-crosscountry-idea.193760/
They’re not identical though. Very soon all the XC HST stock will have power doors, none of the available stock will have and I can’t imagine a company being allowed to use slam door stock again when they’ve just got rid of it.
Given the length of time taken to get the small number of sets compliant there’s really little point in trying to convert more 40 year old life expired stock.
Government by lobby group.
TPE, First Open Access and LNER will be adding a chunk of extra capacity in the North East over the next few years which might relieve the XC situation a bit.
Getting other TOCs to similarly increase the capacity in certain areas might be more effective overall (e.g. EMR Derby - Sheffield - Leeds), then assess how much extra capacity XC needs as this effects whether a longer single unit or doubling up strategy is used.
Often XC overloading is due to lack of local capacity especially around TOC boundaries.
irish_rail
Established Member
It's sad that the majority must suffer (by not getting unmodified spare HST sets) so that a tiny minority is satisfied. I agree that we should be aiming to eliminate slam doors etc, but the idea that they are acceptable today, but not in 3 months time is ludicrous. This 2020 deadline has always been ludicrous. Let's get on and convert stock, but at a sensible pace and let's not bin good stock just because it doesn't reach the standard come January 1st!
a_c_skinner
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There has been an XC slam door set in traffic very recently, it may still be.
Exactly. In the next few years. The deactivated 125s would have been an (almost) immediate if short term addition.
The least important thing in the culture of the industry seems to the passenger to be the passenger. A lot of the capacity issues don't have an immediate means of mitigation; they need infrastructure work or new rolling stock. This one seems neither.
Still need somewhere to maintain them, changes to signing on points for drivers, staff training on differences between the XC and GWR / EMR / LNER HSTs. Probably a lot of short term cost and effort.
Considering XC have borrowed entire LNER HSTs in the recent past there can't be that many differences to train them on...
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