I can't speak for weekends but as I'm commuted it for the last five years, it generally hasn't been that bad.
The last six months, are starting to grate.
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WMR/LNWR Staff shortages
- Thread starter londonmidland
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I can't speak for weekends but as I'm commuted it for the last five years, it generally hasn't been that bad.
The last six months, are starting to grate.
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DarloRich
Veteran Member
Chaos this evening south of Northampton. VERY few trains running and station staff left to try and sort out taxis home for people. Poor show
BucksBones
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It’s becoming the norm isn’t it? I fear we have a rather unpleasant time ahead.
DarloRich
Veteran Member
Sadly I think you may be right
DarloRich
Veteran Member
More trains on the wcml cancelled due to staff shortages this evening. Had to be put on a virgin train instead
richardjeeves
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You would think they would ramp up recruitment. I know 2 people who have been stuck in a talent pool for a year. Saying that though I know it isn’t as easy as just brining more people in. Hopefully they will get it sorted soon.
londonmidland
Established Member
On an unrelated note, when does the Cross City leaf fall timetable start?
syorksdeano
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DarloRich
Veteran Member
What is causing the staff shortages? Is it "work to rule"? Is staff morale that low? Is it the impending doo rumours?
It is utter chaos at present and in honesty the toc dont seem to care. The only response availble seems to be: we have more staff coming.
This has never been a problem on LNWR or LM. Why is it an issue now?
It is utter chaos at present and in honesty the toc dont seem to care. The only response availble seems to be: we have more staff coming.
This has never been a problem on LNWR or LM. Why is it an issue now?
I never knew this how long has it been like this
VT 390
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Does anyone know if WMR are doing anything about their staff shortage of how long it will be until they will?
There's barely an operator on northern routes that aren't short staffed and short of rolling stock. It's systemic failure.
Sickness probably a factor as well. Will only get worse heading into winter. Guards having to man overcrowded trains all day in the flu season.
Sickness probably a factor as well. Will only get worse heading into winter. Guards having to man overcrowded trains all day in the flu season.
GRALISTAIR
Established Member
I had honestly never thought about that.
Silverlinky
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The leave quotas are full this week due to it being half-term holiday time. That coupled with a lower take-up of rest day working and overtime due to the same reason causes the chaos we have seen today.
gray1404
Established Member
Just got chatting to a guy in Liverpool. He said it took him from 11am until 7pm to get from Coverenty to Liverpool. I see some of the London services were cancelled from Liverpool. He'd purchased an Anytime Return despite travelling at Off Peak times. I told him about delay repay. He initially wasn't interested as too much hassle but when I showed him some emails on my phone confirming payments back onto my Visa card he wanted to know more about getting his money back.
Surely WMT arranged ticket acceptance on Virgin and Cross Country though.....
Surely WMT arranged ticket acceptance on Virgin and Cross Country though.....
Silverlinky
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They tried, and it was in during the morning peak, however VT pulled it as their trains were full and standing soon after off peak kicked in thanks to the influx of WMT passengers.
DarloRich
Veteran Member
this morning seems to be ok. I wonder what caused the spike in unavailable staff yesterday?
This is an observation on the issue in general. I don't know the specific circumstances of the WMT staff shortages...
Staffing levels and rosters across the industry should be robust enough to cover all annual leave and a reasonable amount of sickness and other absence (training, union release etc). People not working overtime is not an excuse because the whole point of depot establishments is that they should be able to cover it with spares and cover turns. With regards to annual leave: there will only be so many people allowed to book the day off. Once that number of people are booked off then that's it, no more leave gets granted.
The bottom line is that there are nowhere near enough staff employed on the railway in this country and the institutional and ingrained reliance on overtime has led to this situation.
What's the alternative? Have more spares who, God forbid, might end up not doing any work some days. The issue there is that you have to pay these people, you have to grant them leave and sick pay, you have to make pension contributions and so on. It's also pertinent that so many members of staff are reliant on the overtime that they would be opposed to a situation where increased permanent staffing levels meant it dried up. ASLEF talks about overtime as something that they wish to see eventually done away with, but you can set your watch by rest day working being sanctioned indefinitely. The members who spend all their days off at work would get their houses repossessed!
TOCs have obviously done the maths and decided it's more beneficial to them to cancel trains than it is to employ enough permanent staff to run them. At the end of the day TOCs are private concerns whose purpose is to make profits for their shareholders and that will guide their decision-making before any altruistic desire to provide a reliable train service.
Staffing levels and rosters across the industry should be robust enough to cover all annual leave and a reasonable amount of sickness and other absence (training, union release etc). People not working overtime is not an excuse because the whole point of depot establishments is that they should be able to cover it with spares and cover turns. With regards to annual leave: there will only be so many people allowed to book the day off. Once that number of people are booked off then that's it, no more leave gets granted.
The bottom line is that there are nowhere near enough staff employed on the railway in this country and the institutional and ingrained reliance on overtime has led to this situation.
What's the alternative? Have more spares who, God forbid, might end up not doing any work some days. The issue there is that you have to pay these people, you have to grant them leave and sick pay, you have to make pension contributions and so on. It's also pertinent that so many members of staff are reliant on the overtime that they would be opposed to a situation where increased permanent staffing levels meant it dried up. ASLEF talks about overtime as something that they wish to see eventually done away with, but you can set your watch by rest day working being sanctioned indefinitely. The members who spend all their days off at work would get their houses repossessed!
TOCs have obviously done the maths and decided it's more beneficial to them to cancel trains than it is to employ enough permanent staff to run them. At the end of the day TOCs are private concerns whose purpose is to make profits for their shareholders and that will guide their decision-making before any altruistic desire to provide a reliable train service.
The other thing is the diagrams were rewritten for May and are more intense for both grades. Why would you want to give up your day off knowing you'll be getting a 9 hour+ job shoved up your backside with sod all break and knowing full well you'll be running late for most of the day.
Train crew on the whole don't need the extra money these days. Add that onto the DOO dispute and that's why your seeing cancellations
Train crew on the whole don't need the extra money these days. Add that onto the DOO dispute and that's why your seeing cancellations
It’s just my observation, but in countries like Germany, platform staff or similar roles appear considerably less numerous on Stations than they do in most of the UK .
Merle Haggard
Established Member
Well, so far (12.00) 5 trains through Northampton caped or pined here.
185
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Disagree. Cost of a cancellation is thousands or much more dependant on length of journey. Cost of a drivers or guards wage might be a tenth of that or less. Amount varies franchise to franchise, figures are subject to commercially secret clauses.
riceuten
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"Staffing levels and rosters across the industry should be robust enough to cover all annual leave and a reasonable amount of sickness and other absence (training, union release etc)"
They should, but that costs money. Many TOCs rely soley on rest day working to cover almost all sickness, training and other absences. So when a driver or guard legitimately doesn't want to work the 6th Saturday in a row, or (gasp) wants to go on holiday, the TOC blames the lack of willingness of staff to work rather than their lack of staff. And that, sadly, is how the Great British public conceives it, and blames "lazy", "feckless" drivers and guards rather than the companies too busy counting the profit.
Add to that the arrangements where TOCs like TSGN who paid fines in advance so as to avoid specifically being fined for not running certain trains, and you end up with zero incentive for them to run trains at all.
"People not working overtime is not an excuse because the whole point of depot establishments is that they should be able to cover it with spares and cover turns."
And if your TOC's business model doesn't actually include any spares or cover turns? I even hear people stating that drivers and guards "should be forced to work overtime as part of their contract". Generally the kind of people who think one should be "glad to have a job"
"With regards to annual leave: there will only be so many people allowed to book the day off. Once that number of people are booked off then that's it, no more leave gets granted."
You end up with the situation elsewhere in the private sector where staff lose annual leave because they are unable to take it.
"The bottom line is that there are nowhere near enough staff employed on the railway in this country and the institutional and ingrained reliance on overtime has led to this situation."
This, in spades. But whilst you do not incentivise TOCs to actually recruit and retain staff, and do not strip poorly performing TOCs of franchises, this will never, ever happen.
They should, but that costs money. Many TOCs rely soley on rest day working to cover almost all sickness, training and other absences. So when a driver or guard legitimately doesn't want to work the 6th Saturday in a row, or (gasp) wants to go on holiday, the TOC blames the lack of willingness of staff to work rather than their lack of staff. And that, sadly, is how the Great British public conceives it, and blames "lazy", "feckless" drivers and guards rather than the companies too busy counting the profit.
Add to that the arrangements where TOCs like TSGN who paid fines in advance so as to avoid specifically being fined for not running certain trains, and you end up with zero incentive for them to run trains at all.
"People not working overtime is not an excuse because the whole point of depot establishments is that they should be able to cover it with spares and cover turns."
And if your TOC's business model doesn't actually include any spares or cover turns? I even hear people stating that drivers and guards "should be forced to work overtime as part of their contract". Generally the kind of people who think one should be "glad to have a job"
"With regards to annual leave: there will only be so many people allowed to book the day off. Once that number of people are booked off then that's it, no more leave gets granted."
You end up with the situation elsewhere in the private sector where staff lose annual leave because they are unable to take it.
"The bottom line is that there are nowhere near enough staff employed on the railway in this country and the institutional and ingrained reliance on overtime has led to this situation."
This, in spades. But whilst you do not incentivise TOCs to actually recruit and retain staff, and do not strip poorly performing TOCs of franchises, this will never, ever happen.
londonmidland
Established Member
Not related to staff shortages but Network Rail have currently put a block on all services from Wolverhampton to call at Birmingham New Street due to severe congestion through the station.
Several incidents including a broken down train and overhead wires problems is causing disruption across the WMT and LNWR network.
Several incidents including a broken down train and overhead wires problems is causing disruption across the WMT and LNWR network.
One wonders whether the agreed premiums due back to the DFT for some franchises mean that it's very difficult for enough spare staff to be employed? If the targets were too tight it would make something like that very difficult. No idea whether that could be the case here, but I guess in some franchises it could be.
Regards any members of the public who feel overtime should be forced. 1.I trust they are happy and willing tod doforced over time in their jobs. And 2. Employees mental health and wellbeing is an important factor and if an organisation attempted to force employees to work into the ground, they could end up in the long term with a higher sick rate and people less enthusiastic about being at work (every day).
Also could employees leaving for other TOCs potentially be a factor?
ah-media
Member
It has been an absolutely wretched evening for LNWR. The 1633 Euston - Tring stopper left 25 minutes late because the Conductor was stuck on an inbound train. When it left it was full... and when I say full, they stopped people getting on 5 mins before departure because every bit of space was taken up with passengers. When it got to Watford, it had lost another 15 minutes after running slow all the way from Willesden Junction. It was an absolute farce.
Not just traincrew. Two of their control desks unmanned this afternoon in major disruption with XC blaming significant nationwide service issues on the knock on effect of 'another operator failing to manage their train service' which doesn't take much inference to work out to whom they refer.
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