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Two maximum £5.60 fares over Overground and Tube disruptions

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Giugiaro

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Had trouble last Saturday when I wanted to return from Harrow & Wealdstone to Excel London.

There were service disruptions that prevented me from being able to do the journey as initially planned. Fare type was PAYG Oyster Card.

Original Plan was to travel through:

Harrow & Wealdstone -> Willesden Junction -> Stratford -> Prince Regent

Touched in at 15:16 and travelled to Willesden Junction and tapped one time at the Pink Reader to change to the London Overground for Stratford. Service got suspended and no trains were then bond for Stratford.
Asked staff if it was possible to travel to Clapham Junction and use the South London Line to reach the DLR avoiding Zone 1. Touched the Pink Reader again to acknowledge current position (16:20). I took some time to check if it would be possible to use Southern to reach Clapham Junction but decided not to. The plan now was:

Harrow & Wealdstone -> Willesden Junction -> Clapham Junction -> Shadwell -> Canning Town -> Prince Regent

After a good while waiting for a train for Clapham Junction, staff announced service on the whole North London Line was suspended. At this time I had no other option but to go through Zone 1.
Went back down to take the Bakerloo line and did the following:

Harrow & Wealdstone ->
Willesden Junction
-> Baker Street -> Canning Town -> Prince Regent​

When I arrived at Prince Regent the card reader wouldn't accept my card. Talked to staff, which advised to Top-up my Oyster and return (and exit) in Zone 1 through gates to complete my journey, as access to ExCeL was already closed for the day.
Given that services on the Hammersmith & City Line was suspended, the return would now be:

Prince Regent -> Canning Town -> London Bridge -> King's Cross St. Pancras

During that return, service on the Northern Line was running with severe disruptions and was suspended temporarily when I reached Moorgate. Although I could go straight to King's Cross through the Met/Circle, I stayed to assist a girl that got separated from her boyfriend in Bank.
I stood with her at the ticket barrier together with staff until service on the Northern Line was reestablished and the boyfriend was able to reach Moorgate. Accompanied them both to King's Cross through the Metropolitan Line as the girl was extremely stressed out and scared, and both were travelling on the Tube for the first time and didn't know how to get to King's Cross.

I finally reached King's Cross St. Pancras at 21:50 and was charged a second £5.60 penalty fare...

So in the end the journey was:

Prince Regent -> Canning Town -> London Bridge -> Moorgate -> King's Cross St. Pancras

In total, the journey was:

Harrow & Wealdstone ->
Willesden Junction
-> Baker Street -> Canning Town -> Prince Regent
-> Canning Town -> London Bridge ->
Moorgate

-> King's Cross St. Pancras​

Red Stations correspond to stations were I was held captive for a long stretch of time due to unexpected issues.

I already gave the missing information on my Oyster Account, but was noticed that:

Your application for a journey on 26/10/2019 has been processed and we have calculated that no refund is due for Oyster card number ####. Based on the details you submitted, you were charged the advertised fare for the journey you made.

I'd like the proper Zone 1-5 and Zone 1-3 fares to be given and for the deduced credit to be added back to the card.

Since I'm also not a UK national, I won't be anytime soon be able to touch my Oyster card on a reader.

upload_2019-10-28_16-37-44.png
 
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najaB

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I'm not going to comment too much other than to say that the Oyster help desk are good at sorting this kind of thing out.

Contact them again and explain why their initial rejection was a mistake.
 

87 027

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I was in a similar situation recently (missing touches out/in due to exceeding maximum journey times during travel disruption). Despite several attempts I found it impossible to talk to a human on the helpline, having selected all the “press x for y” options the automated response told me to resolve it via the website then hung up on me - several times. There is no option on the website to connect missing touches in such a situation so I used the “email us about this journey” option. I was called back by an agent but TfL have now botched the process by refunding me too much. I tried to contact them again by helpline but still no option to talk to a human. So I emailed them and am still waiting for a response over a month later... Meanwhile my TfL account still shows an unresolved journey and autocomplete is no longer functioning (not that I have ever needed it, but I do regularly use the app to confirm the system has registered my touch in for peace of mind)
 

MikeWh

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but TfL have now botched the process by refunding me too much.
This is not uncommon and I wouldn't waste any more of your time trying to correct it. Donate the extra to charity if it makes you feel better.
I would phone the helpline. They are usually excellent.
Agreed. Your journey history mentions Russell Square to Ruislip but you don't mention that at all in your story. Can I assume that it was the first journey that day and was uneventful? If that's true then the detail of what happened later is this:

You started at Harrow and Wealdstone with a balance of £4.80. On touch in £5.60 was deducted leaving you with -80p. This would not be a problem normally because the overcharge would be added back on at touch out at the end. The problem is that you took too long to get to Prince Regent. Normally this would result in another £5.60 deduction, but because your card was already negative it wouldn't do that. The advice at Prince Regent was only half correct; you should have topped up, then you should have touched in for your return journey, but you can say the advice wasn't clear so don't worry about that. When you eventually got to Kings Cross you still didn't have a started journey so it charged another £5.60, which deducted from the £9.20 after the top up left you with your balance of £3.60.

The charges for the two actual jouneys you made were H&W to PR £3.10 and PR to KXSP £2.80 making a total of £5.90. You paid £11.20 so are due a refund of £5.30. As you won't be able to pick the refund up in the near future they should be happy to do a bank transfer if you give them your sort code and account number. They may be able to refund to a credit card instead, but I've never tried that.

One last point. The Southern services bypass Willesden Junction so the only way to get to Clapham Junction from there is with London Overground.
 

PeterC

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This is not uncommon and I wouldn't waste any more of your time trying to correct it. Donate the extra to charity if it makes you feel better.

Agreed. Your journey history mentions Russell Square to Ruislip but you don't mention that at all in your story. Can I assume that it was the first journey that day and was uneventful? If that's true then the detail of what happened later is this:

You started at Harrow and Wealdstone with a balance of £4.80. On touch in £5.60 was deducted leaving you with -80p. This would not be a problem normally because the overcharge would be added back on at touch out at the end. The problem is that you took too long to get to Prince Regent. Normally this would result in another £5.60 deduction, but because your card was already negative it wouldn't do that. The advice at Prince Regent was only half correct; you should have topped up, then you should have touched in for your return journey, but you can say the advice wasn't clear so don't worry about that. When you eventually got to Kings Cross you still didn't have a started journey so it charged another £5.60, which deducted from the £9.20 after the top up left you with your balance of £3.60.

The charges for the two actual jouneys you made were H&W to PR £3.10 and PR to KXSP £2.80 making a total of £5.90. You paid £11.20 so are due a refund of £5.30. As you won't be able to pick the refund up in the near future they should be happy to do a bank transfer if you give them your sort code and account number. They may be able to refund to a credit card instead, but I've never tried that.

One last point. The Southern services bypass Willesden Junction so the only way to get to Clapham Junction from there is with London Overground.
Presumably when touching out at Prince Regent the system thought that the OP was touching in for a new journey as the previous one had timed out.

I have had this problem with free standing readers and found that the Help Desk had problems with the idea that a touch out had been interpretend as a touch in.
 

jumble

Member
Joined
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Messages
1,099
This is not uncommon and I wouldn't waste any more of your time trying to correct it. Donate the extra to charity if it makes you feel better.

Agreed. Your journey history mentions Russell Square to Ruislip but you don't mention that at all in your story. Can I assume that it was the first journey that day and was uneventful? If that's true then the detail of what happened later is this:

You started at Harrow and Wealdstone with a balance of £4.80. On touch in £5.60 was deducted leaving you with -80p. This would not be a problem normally because the overcharge would be added back on at touch out at the end. The problem is that you took too long to get to Prince Regent. Normally this would result in another £5.60 deduction, but because your card was already negative it wouldn't do that. The advice at Prince Regent was only half correct; you should have topped up, then you should have touched in for your return journey, but you can say the advice wasn't clear so don't worry about that. When you eventually got to Kings Cross you still didn't have a started journey so it charged another £5.60, which deducted from the £9.20 after the top up left you with your balance of £3.60.

The charges for the two actual jouneys you made were H&W to PR £3.10 and PR to KXSP £2.80 making a total of £5.90. You paid £11.20 so are due a refund of £5.30. As you won't be able to pick the refund up in the near future they should be happy to do a bank transfer if you give them your sort code and account number. They may be able to refund to a credit card instead, but I've never tried that.

One last point. The Southern services bypass Willesden Junction so the only way to get to Clapham Junction from there is with London Overground.

To add to Mikes excellent advice if you are from abroad and don't have a UK bank account then setting up an oyster online account and asking for a web credit would be another option
 

jumble

Member
Joined
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Messages
1,099
I was in a similar situation recently (missing touches out/in due to exceeding maximum journey times during travel disruption). Despite several attempts I found it impossible to talk to a human on the helpline, having selected all the “press x for y” options the automated response told me to resolve it via the website then hung up on me - several times. There is no option on the website to connect missing touches in such a situation so I used the “email us about this journey” option. I was called back by an agent but TfL have now botched the process by refunding me too much. I tried to contact them again by helpline but still no option to talk to a human. So I emailed them and am still waiting for a response over a month later... Meanwhile my TfL account still shows an unresolved journey and autocomplete is no longer functioning (not that I have ever needed it, but I do regularly use the app to confirm the system has registered my touch in for peace of mind)

This has happened a few times when I have asked for a refund and then auto refund has refunded again
It neatly balances out when my offspring do not bother to claim on delayed trips because it is not them who have paid for the topup LOL
 

87 027

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I would phone the helpline. They are usually excellent.

Which of the interactive menu options actually allows you to speak to a human? (I use PAYG on a registered contactless bank card - due to my travel patterns this works out at around £50-£100 a year cheaper than an annual season)
 

MikeWh

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Which of the interactive menu options actually allows you to speak to a human? (I use PAYG on a registered contactless bank card - due to my travel patterns this works out at around £50-£100 a year cheaper than an annual season)
None of them. For contactless you are expected to use the contact us about this journey form from the detail screen from journey history.
 

Giugiaro

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Your journey history mentions Russell Square to Ruislip but you don't mention that at all in your story. Can I assume that it was the first journey that day and was uneventful?
Yes, that first journey to Ruislip went without any issues. Thank you for the help. I'll phone them as soon as I can.

One last point. The Southern services bypass Willesden Junction so the only way to get to Clapham Junction from there is with London Overground.
I was wondering that if I backed up to Wembley Central I could reach Clapham Junction through Southern, but since the map placed the route right alongside the North London Line, I was afraid that I could be caught up on another service suspension if I went down that alternative since services to Clapham were also just been suspended on the LO.

Presumably when touching out at Prince Regent the system thought that the OP was touching in for a new journey as the previous one had timed out.
It didn't help that at the time I was £-0.80 in credit because of the charge they did when I first touched in.

Well, to be honest it was a good thing it didn't touch in at the time, otherwise I suspect I would have just carried on and eventually end up loosing even more money!
This just shows how important it is to keep a system consistent.

To add to Mikes excellent advice if you are from abroad and don't have a UK bank account then setting up an oyster online account and asking for a web credit would be another option.
I do have an Oyster online account. I'll do that if given the option. Thank you!
 

Snow1964

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I too have had similar problem during disruption, also split mine into two journeys.

The oyster helpline is very good at sorting this sort of thing, but expect to wait 15+ minutes for an Operator to be available.

The refund process is difficult if you aren’t expecting to use system in next few days as have to nominate a station AND make a journey. (Just touching a reader starts another incomplete journey). Not sure if you can get credits to foreign bank accounts. There are also further refund limitations if you have older Oyster card (I think TfL refer to them as 1st Generation)
 
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najaB

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The refund process is difficult if you aren’t expecting to use system in next few days as have to nominate a station AND make a journey. (Just touching a reader starts another incomplete journey).
That seems like something that could be designed out of the system. Since you have to nominate a station the first touch at that station should just do the credit to your card.
 

MikeWh

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That seems like something that could be designed out of the system. Since you have to nominate a station the first touch at that station should just do the credit to your card.
Firstly, nominating a station is being phased out of the refund process. Secondly there would be chaos if you potentially had to touch twice on starting a journey. Refunds are often set up before the card user knows that one is due.
 

najaB

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Firstly, nominating a station is being phased out of the refund process. Secondly there would be chaos if you potentially had to touch twice on starting a journey. Refunds are often set up before the card user knows that one is due.
If nominating a station is being phased out then it makes sense.
 

gray1404

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The other thing to consider is that the op is entitled to a refund /compensation for the delay to their journey.
 

Bletchleyite

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That seems like something that could be designed out of the system. Since you have to nominate a station the first touch at that station should just do the credit to your card.

The best fix to this is to move the processing from the card to the backoffice, with the card being a simple RFID device. That'll be happening when Oyster is moved to the contactless backend, and it'll fix all of these kinds of issue.
 

hkstudent

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I too have had similar problem during disruption, also split mine into two journeys.

The oyster helpline is very good at sorting this sort of thing, but expect to wait 15+ minutes for an Operator to be available.

The refund process is difficult if you aren’t expecting to use system in next few days as have to nominate a station AND make a journey. (Just touching a reader starts another incomplete journey). Not sure if you can get credits to foreign bank accounts. There are also further refund limitations if you have older Oyster card (I think TfL refer to them as 1st Generation)
Or another way to avoid waiting, use the online complain form, which the call centre will get to you in a day or two.
 

Snow1964

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Or another way to avoid waiting, use the online complain form, which the call centre will get to you in a day or two.

Choice of phoning and waiting for an answer 15+ minutes later, or going online and waiting 24-48 hours

Not the most instant timescale for resolution, and both involve quite a bit of your time. I guess that is modern idea of customer service.
 

Giugiaro

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Have you spoken to the helpline yet? What did they say?

Yes, I did. I asked for the £5.30 refund through the phone as web credit. It should be online in the next 24 hours.
Supposedly it's the safest option as I can either transfer it back to my bank account or use it on a Top-up next time I get to London.

I decided not to ask for the £1.50 fare as the operator was suggesting for the H&W to PR and didn't also appeal for a delayed service refund. I'm satisfied with what was agreed above.
 

Giugiaro

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How long does it take for web credit to be conceded?

It's been a week since I came to terms with the helpline but no value as been received on my online account...
 

hkstudent

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How long does it take for web credit to be conceded?

It's been a week since I came to terms with the helpline but no value as been received on my online account...
It should be immediate arrival for web credit once the case is confirmed. It's better for you to chase up.
 
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