Does anyone have any more information on this consultation? I saw a poster at Raynes Park this evening about cutting back a number of late night services - but the URL on the poster (www.southwesternrailway.com/consultation) just links to a page that says “Our consultation will open soon”.
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SWR consultation on late night services
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I’ve seen a few people tweet SWR regarding this and the response was that (paraphrased) the posters shouldn’t have gone up yet and will be taken down until they should go up. I’m guessing (probably incorrectly) that they were due to go up *after* the timetable change in December so as to not muddy the waters regarding which timetable change the consultation is regarding as I think the photos of the poster I saw referenced the Dec ‘20 timetable.
molecrochip
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The link now redirects to https://www.southwesternrailway.com/plan-my-journey/timetables/december-2020-timetable-consultation so appears very much in respect of 2020 timetable. This is rather interesting as a number of lines were due to be getting later services M-S as part of the December 2018 timetable!
higthomas
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Hmm, that's not what I was expecting from the new(ish) franchise!
theironroad
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I saw one of these posters the other day and intialky came back as a 404 error, but now with the holding page of consultation open soon.
I imagine they'll target stuff (at their peril probably as they'll be some kickback) stuff like the 0105 ex Waterloo down the mainline and the 0400 ex Guildford and stuff like that.
swt_passenger
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Very much so, maintenance aspects were summarised as follows, middle paragraph is key:
“As short-term top priority, NR should set itself a challenging target to remove all the existing long standing ESRs and unplanned TSRs and create much tighter ‘remediate and remove’ targets for all those which are imposed when required. NR should also seek to provide sufficient incremental financial resource for maintenance and renewals during CP6 to at least arrest the decline in asset age profiles.
“In the longer-term NR, SWR and DfT should cooperate so as to produce longer no-trains periods (5 nights per week) in the suburban area to facilitate much improved infrastructure maintenance access. This involves adjustment being made to the Train Service Specification.
“NR should expedite implementation of phase 2 of the electrified third rail safer isolations programme in the suburban area and introduce cyclical maintenance practices to optimise the efficiency of access and work activities...”
from the drop down option “Infrastructure Maintenance and Renewals” here: https://www.southwesternrailway.com/other/about-us/independent-performance-review
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swt_passenger
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That still requires the service to be thinned out though, like it is on Sunday mornings.
The late night service is presumably pretty thinned out to begin with though.
You can see the point. NR need More time to work on lines. But these are often the loaded trains. And you can also see it allows SWR to reduce staff and overtime and travel for staff. Probably saves on cleaning fluid and mops as well! But I think we all know the risk is that it turns into something like non-London buses. And they all stop running as soon as they can. Not wanting fares. Just the subsidies to run... I’d be concerned if it were permanent rather than on certain lines at certain times.
Cutting back late night services for engineering work doesn't have to mean their removal from the timetable. The engineering teams can't work on every route every night. There are quite a few places where they apply changes to late night services for a week at a time, running buses instead or applying diversions, often getting longer timeslots than if they just removed the latest trains every night. This has been going on for some time on various routes.
I guess it gets more difficult when they want to do work nearer the centre of London.
Farningham
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Late night midweek all-stations services from London Victoria to East Croydon were withdrawn by Southern a few years ago, with a suggestion that this was a temporary arrangement to catch up on maintenance, and of course have not been restored. This is a four-track line with platforms on all lines so on the face of it, no need to cut at all, but presumably GTR are not interested in providing short-distance services at the expense of delaying longer-distance ones.
Yes, but that was justified on the grounds of duplication with the Thameslink route. The overnight trains remain to Blackfriars (and can go via Tulse Hill / Streatham or London Bridge (non-stop) as engineering requirements demand.
There are still trains from Victoria up to 0013.
In his report, Chris Gibb questioned the need for overnight trains from Victoria to Gatwick given the hourly National Express coach from Victoria Coach Station. If SWR cut late night services, there are fewer alternatives for the people who use them.
I did take the 0105 from Waterloo to Southampton once (admittedly on a Friday night in February) - there weren't many people making the whole journey.
The SW routes are slightly problematic, being paired by direction (except the Mains as far as Durnsford Road). But I would have thought the primary demand was outbound, so inbound workings could be diverted to some extent - until of course you need to block the down side!
dk1
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Of course. That makes more sense now.
I have taken the 1:05 service as far as Woking as I attended a concert on Folkestone and it was the only way to get home and avoid having to stay the night somewhere else.
Had that Saturday had engineering works in the Basingstoke area then it woild have run via Guildford and I could have even avoided the Uber from Woking to Guildford.
Of course it's not often I do that and if I choose not to live in London then I must accept that public transport won't be as good and could get worse at night, overtime, if they deem it necessary.
In London many places but not all have night buses. It is probably not fesible to run them when traveling away from London to places outside of London.
I'm surprised they are consulting on the timetables for Dec 2020, as I'd have assumed they would just use the results from the previous consultation. I wonder if this one will produce different results from the previous feedback.
There is a one change to the current timetable I'd like to see dropped. That is the 19:00 Waterloo to Guildford service skipping Woking. From Dec 2019 a few evening trains are timed to arrive earlier into Woking, breaking connections for passengers off the trains from Surbtion. However I can't see how they will actually run to that earlier time, as evening trains are often late anyway. There maybe some reason why this won't be the case though, which I'm not aware of. If they do run late though, it might make the connections regularly possible, abet not listed.as possible.
Had that Saturday had engineering works in the Basingstoke area then it woild have run via Guildford and I could have even avoided the Uber from Woking to Guildford.
Of course it's not often I do that and if I choose not to live in London then I must accept that public transport won't be as good and could get worse at night, overtime, if they deem it necessary.
In London many places but not all have night buses. It is probably not fesible to run them when traveling away from London to places outside of London.
I'm surprised they are consulting on the timetables for Dec 2020, as I'd have assumed they would just use the results from the previous consultation. I wonder if this one will produce different results from the previous feedback.
There is a one change to the current timetable I'd like to see dropped. That is the 19:00 Waterloo to Guildford service skipping Woking. From Dec 2019 a few evening trains are timed to arrive earlier into Woking, breaking connections for passengers off the trains from Surbtion. However I can't see how they will actually run to that earlier time, as evening trains are often late anyway. There maybe some reason why this won't be the case though, which I'm not aware of. If they do run late though, it might make the connections regularly possible, abet not listed.as possible.
If Mr Gibb is questioning the need for night services to Gatwick on the basis that there is a coach, he is barking up the wrong tree.
Yes, this is true. I suppose for longer distance services you always have either the Windsor lines or the line through Effingham Junction.
It's a shame we don't still have the Frimley West curve !
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...le/619795/chris-gibb-report-southern-rail.pdf
Page 7 of Appendix 3 (page 44 of the file):
So are they using the nighttime to improve both stations and their security?
I suppose at least they have Thameslink.
BTW, I get that Clapham Junction's a bit left behind in terms of investment, but what's the big problem with Victoria ? True, the shopping centre isn't as geared towards yuppies as Waterloo/London Bridge, but it has everything and functions well.
http://www.southwesternrailway.com/consultation
SWR are requesting feedback regarding potential changes for the December 2020 timetable, noticeable to me is the addition of a 0016 fast to Guildford and the withdrawal of the 0050 ‘Matelot express’
SWR are requesting feedback regarding potential changes for the December 2020 timetable, noticeable to me is the addition of a 0016 fast to Guildford and the withdrawal of the 0050 ‘Matelot express’
Does look like some fairly swingeing cuts are being proposed on Sun-Thur nights (e.g. the removal of the 0105 Southampton service, which has run for as long as I can remember), to be compensated by only modest improvements on Fri/Sat nights. Nothing noticeably later on Fri/Sat night (e.g. more departures post 0100) from what I can see. Seems in some ways to be a case of the engineering work tail wagging the dog; if they need to do engineering work, run the service as a bus or coach - don't just get rid of it!
Having used the 0105 on a number of occasions, and sometimes on a weekday, I would not support the proposal; will email SWR to let them know.
Having used the 0105 on a number of occasions, and sometimes on a weekday, I would not support the proposal; will email SWR to let them know.
godfreycomplex
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This proposal is likely not to be supported given how well used many of these services are I would suggest.
The cosmic circles of life are such that the services that are likely to provide the most benefit to engineers by being withdrawn (the 01:05 to Southampton for instance) are the most used.
The cosmic circles of life are such that the services that are likely to provide the most benefit to engineers by being withdrawn (the 01:05 to Southampton for instance) are the most used.
molecrochip
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Consultation has gone live today. Perhaps what is interesting is that the plans tweak at the edges based upon the current timetable but mention nothing of the franchise commitments to later journeys. E.g the later Portsmouth service is not mentioned.
The enhance inner suburban service on Fri/Sat nights will be welcome but still inferior compared to Night Tube. There is a good case for running at least the Kingston circulars (and perhaps to Epsom/Surbiton) much later on these nights, if not all night.
The midweek last trains to Wimbledon, Raynes Park (0012) and New Malden (2357) in particular look much earlier, compared to current 0042. Doesn’t give much time for a post-theatre drink if you factor in tube time or walk from the west end. Thursday nights in particular are often busy on the late services, particularly in the run-up to Christmas during the office party season. Could there be a case to maintain the later services on Thursdays for at least part of the year?
It’s not entirely clear but i assume some of the Fri/Sat changes will also apply Mon-Thu - e.g. the new 2354 to Epsom on Fri/Sat would presumably also run Mon-Thu. Otherwise the withdrawal of the 0015 to Epsom would leave the last departure at 2342?
The midweek last trains to Wimbledon, Raynes Park (0012) and New Malden (2357) in particular look much earlier, compared to current 0042. Doesn’t give much time for a post-theatre drink if you factor in tube time or walk from the west end. Thursday nights in particular are often busy on the late services, particularly in the run-up to Christmas during the office party season. Could there be a case to maintain the later services on Thursdays for at least part of the year?
It’s not entirely clear but i assume some of the Fri/Sat changes will also apply Mon-Thu - e.g. the new 2354 to Epsom on Fri/Sat would presumably also run Mon-Thu. Otherwise the withdrawal of the 0015 to Epsom would leave the last departure at 2342?
Theatre performances happen every night of the week though, save in some cases, maybe Mondays. Therefore maybe the thinking is this needs to be done and there will be winners and losers from this.
I am now off to look at the proposals in more detail.
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