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Northern Class 195: Construction/Introduction Updates
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Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Pretty much 100% of cars made today have reliable windscreen wipers. I never heard of a wiper fault on a new car, ever.
What gives?
Bantamzen
Established Member
Its not UK related, however a quick search reveals:
https://www.carscoops.com/2019/05/n...led-stateside-over-faulty-windshield-wippers/
(Snippet only)
So yeah, it can happen, even to a major manufacturer like Mazda who produce many more units than CAF ever will.
I've had to replace wiper mechs on a couple of cars in the last 20 years. One was a mechanical failure of the mech the other a failure in the switches that controlled the park position.
I think the failure rate of the CAF issue will be the problem. Getting to the bottom of why and engineering a solution may be the problem especially if the same motor/mech works fine elsewhere.
The windscreens on the 195/331 are large? I'm not familiar with other CAF stuff is this unusual for them? Perhaps the motor isn't man enough for the presumably larger wiper and arm.
I think the failure rate of the CAF issue will be the problem. Getting to the bottom of why and engineering a solution may be the problem especially if the same motor/mech works fine elsewhere.
The windscreens on the 195/331 are large? I'm not familiar with other CAF stuff is this unusual for them? Perhaps the motor isn't man enough for the presumably larger wiper and arm.
I have split some posts about announcements into a new thread: https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...-be-too-loud-frequent-and-distracting.194273/
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There's obviously a lot of torque on that single point attachment of the wiper arm to the spindle. The wipers do sometimes judder slightly when sweeping which won't help. They are also supposed to park on the right of the screen, quite a few don't, which is clearly a software issue too. When the TCMS is in 'bypass' mode the use of the wiper on intermittent setting is lost, so the TCMS rather than a timing relay is clearly in control of some wiper function. The wiper switch has four settings - off/intermittent/slow/fast. There's an adjustment knob to determine how intermittent that setting is, but clearly somehow even what should be a simple but vital built of kit such as the wiper has had the 'computerise it' treatment with the resultant effects on reliability.
Anyone know how what kind of debut the Northern Ireland Railways CAF units had? NIR now has an all-CAF fleet for their internal services; they have gone back for more so presumably must be satisfied. Maybe no-one else wanted a small order for 5' 3" gauge trains!
Grumpy Git
On Moderation
195.001 was at platform 6 at ~08:00 Liverpool Lime St. this morning.
195.118 was on platform 9 (or 10) at the same time.
Also noted a single 195 in the VTWC sidings at Edge Hill and another and one at Allerton Depot, (the only ones there, numbers unknown).
195.118 was on platform 9 (or 10) at the same time.
Also noted a single 195 in the VTWC sidings at Edge Hill and another and one at Allerton Depot, (the only ones there, numbers unknown).
The 195s have now been on the Calder Valley for a week and the service is a shambles. The Chester ManVic - Bradford - Leeds trains are regularly cancelled or turned short , reasons generally being advised as unit problems or a shortage of drivers.
Today noted theres been a 195 at Bradford Interchange all day presumably having failed this morning enroute and still there this evening. At Leeds my Manchester vic 195 train was delayed over 15 minutes whilst a fitter tried to sort a “technical issue”.
Trains which do run tend to loose time enroute so slowly accumulate delays which then puts them out of slot further down the line or means other trains end up catching them up.
I’d be interested to see the performance figures for the last week as it must have really nosedived since the 195s came on stream.
When they work they are nice to travel on but they just seem to have too many faults and not enough crews trained on them currently. Is there any sort of plan in place to try to improve the situation ASAP?
Today noted theres been a 195 at Bradford Interchange all day presumably having failed this morning enroute and still there this evening. At Leeds my Manchester vic 195 train was delayed over 15 minutes whilst a fitter tried to sort a “technical issue”.
Trains which do run tend to loose time enroute so slowly accumulate delays which then puts them out of slot further down the line or means other trains end up catching them up.
I’d be interested to see the performance figures for the last week as it must have really nosedived since the 195s came on stream.
When they work they are nice to travel on but they just seem to have too many faults and not enough crews trained on them currently. Is there any sort of plan in place to try to improve the situation ASAP?
Greybeard33
Established Member
See http://trains.im/ppmhistorical/NT. Not broken down to individual routes though, only service groups.
Spartacus
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A good few cancellations yesterday around Sheffield were to provide crews for 195 training, don't know if that's still the plan today.
Andrew Holland
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While I know little about trains, I am a software engineer and can't help but think that all sounds a little like technology for the sake of it. Software should only exist and be used to solve problems, not create them. What was the problem the software controlling the wipers was meant to be solving?
Or, to put it in the words of Scotty from Star Trek: "The more they overthink the plumbing, the easier it is to stop up the drain". So true.
Bantamzen
Established Member
Then as a software engineer, I wouldn't look up! Because over your head are hundreds if not thousands of vehicles with much more software controlling pretty much ever facet of their vehicles as they fly above you.
Seriously though, there are good reasons for have more software for trains. For a start like planes, the more software they have monitoring or controlling software, the more data on performance the maintenance teams can have. Mechanical & electrical systems will go bang at some point, but as software engineers & mechanics learn more about the reasons, the more they can learn to spot the signs of failure, and thus build the software to anticipate the failures before they happen. Its maybe not so critical in trains as it in planes, but nonetheless these software systems can, and will have valuable benefits in future. Yes there are going to be issues and bugs at the beginning, you yourself will know that, but as these are ironed out then operators will be better able to maximise their units and better plan for regular & irregular maintenance.
That's all well and good but there are already robust procedures in place for equipment failures for simple kit such as wipers, and safety critical systems should be made as simple as they can be.
In my opinion the wipers should've been designed to run by way of an air exchange motor off the main reservoir pipe, much as trains have been designed for the last 60 years, rather than a 24v electric motor subject to extremes of temperature and rainwater. The wiper motor sits external to the cab front, positioned behind the detachable GRP middle yellow panel.
In my opinion the wipers should've been designed to run by way of an air exchange motor off the main reservoir pipe, much as trains have been designed for the last 60 years, rather than a 24v electric motor subject to extremes of temperature and rainwater. The wiper motor sits external to the cab front, positioned behind the detachable GRP middle yellow panel.
Spartacus
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Not particularly when the first post was made on October the 6th. AFAIK there had been no cancellations for training until yesterday.
Bantamzen
Established Member
Simple might be best sometimes, well until simple goes wrong without warning. I don't know enough to comment on which type of wiper would really be best for trains, but planes go through far more challenging conditions than trains and most commercial planes use electrical wiper systems, in what I imagine to be similar to the 195 systyems. And whilst it's bound to be frustrating going through the bedding in process, having systems that can more actively monitor safety critical components in real time and warn of possible failures before they go bang has to be better in the long run?
433N
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Yes, I did pick the wrong week to go there on holiday.
Generally, the York - Blackpool Norths turned up though. What surprised me was that not even Pacers were used as replacements ; I felt Northern were happy running 1 in 2 of the Leeds - Chester services (if they could manage it) rather than resort to a Pacer.
Greybeard33
Established Member
To my knowledge commercial aircraft windscreen wipers are not software controlled, and the wiper motors are inside the pressure cabin, in a benign environment.
I hadn't been intending to doubt your own information.
craigybagel
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On the contrary, both Hyundai/Rotem and Bombardier also bid for those contracts. That said, it wasn't exactly hard to match the standards set by 80 class and 450 class units the CAF fleet replaced.
NoMorePacers
Established Member
Journey Check reports that the 13:29 Manchester Airport - Barrow-in-Furness train has been cancelled.
Is this a 195 and if so what's wrong with it?
Is this a 195 and if so what's wrong with it?
Spartacus
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The continuing battle of wipers.
In fairness it's not just 195s or Northern services that have seen cancellations today due to failed wipers.
In fairness it's not just 195s or Northern services that have seen cancellations today due to failed wipers.
NoMorePacers
Established Member
I've probably missed something - what's wrong with the wipers?
a_c_skinner
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Several Barrow trains cancelled today. I had a rather rattly and sluggish trip from Arnside to Preston, so rattly and sluggish I wondered if we might get cancelled at Lancaster, but it made time before the airport, so I suppose it was OK just the normal 195 rattle.
Saw a couple of units out on test, one 2 car, one 3. Didn't get the numbers. They were not trying out the doors on the stops I saw.
Saw a couple of units out on test, one 2 car, one 3. Didn't get the numbers. They were not trying out the doors on the stops I saw.
Sleeperwaking
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That doesn't necessarily mean anything - don't know if it's the case for 195s, but on some fleets they only test the doors away from stations, particularly during the day. It's to avoid having to deal with passengers trying to board the test train, particularly if the test operator is a freight company whose paperwork may not cover interaction with members of the public / station dispatch procedures. The test train is still stopped periodically to cycle the doors, just not at a station.
a_c_skinner
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It doesn't seem to have hit the spot entirely with the doors... I can see why there are problems doing it though.
The ASDO system wouldn't like doing door cycles outside of a station. And I'd imagine questions would be asked by NwR of what the testers were thinking if doing the doors on a running line ended up with a fault that needed the DOTE contingency plan to be invoked.
Sleeperwaking
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I would presume that the test train would be running with the appropriate ASDO database to support whatever the planned door operation was, with the appropriate on-board test staff to be able to handle / override faults, and with a suitable rescue & recovery plan (agreed with Network Rail) in place if something did go wrong. Like I said above, my experience comes from what's been done on other fleets - the point was that just because you don't see something happening doesn't mean it's not being done.
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