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Shapps to reverse Beeching cuts

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ChiefPlanner

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My local doctors surgery doesn't make any revenue at all.

I still wouldn't be without it though.

If we're serious as a country, about providing opportunities and spreading wealth beyond the Cities, then we need services like the Looe and the Whitby lines. The alternative is stagnation.

I think we can agree to differ (maybe) on the importance of the NHS service and very poorly used lines such as Looe and others.

Just think where simple and targetted train services can make a difference - 2 from my experiences in work where a difference was made - 2 tpd on a Sunday on the Heart of Wales - a line open anyway - where the extra train gave affordable options for modest days out and a fillip to weekend longer connections to the bigger markets. Cost marginal for units and train crew etc.

Norwich - Cambridge hourly - on an underused (open) line linking 2 major economic centers - done right and well from day one. Basically 2 extra units and crews etc.

What difference would (say) - local interest here - for a 30 min frequency on the St Albans - Watford route . One of the most congested areas of the South East with a very high propensity of car traffic etc and severe pressure on all areas.

As many other (discerning) managers would say - know your markets and needs. Doubt if there are double figures at 8 pm on an October evening on some of these deeply rural lines.
 
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yorksrob

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I think we can agree to differ (maybe) on the importance of the NHS service and very poorly used lines such as Looe and others.

Just think where simple and targetted train services can make a difference - 2 from my experiences in work where a difference was made - 2 tpd on a Sunday on the Heart of Wales - a line open anyway - where the extra train gave affordable options for modest days out and a fillip to weekend longer connections to the bigger markets. Cost marginal for units and train crew etc.

Norwich - Cambridge hourly - on an underused (open) line linking 2 major economic centers - done right and well from day one. Basically 2 extra units and crews etc.

What difference would (say) - local interest here - for a 30 min frequency on the St Albans - Watford route . One of the most congested areas of the South East with a very high propensity of car traffic etc and severe pressure on all areas.

As many other (discerning) managers would say - know your markets and needs. Doubt if there are double figures at 8 pm on an October evening on some of these deeply rural lines.

I know from personal experience that an additional 153 targeted towards the Whitby line on Saturdays would make a very great difference. But then I've already started a thread about that.
 

6Gman

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Yes I do. Whitby and Looe all have their part to play in the National economy and culture, and their railways are vital in enabling those communities to do so.

Why on earth would anyone think that they weren't ?

Because there's no evidence that Looe (which has kept its rail service) has performed better than (e.g.) Fowey (which lost its passenger service).
 

ChiefPlanner

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I know from personal experience that an additional 153 targeted towards the Whitby line on Saturdays would make a very great difference. But then I've already started a thread about that.

In reality , maybe a 2 car (153's not being normal traction down there with all the issues on TC knowledge etc and route clearance - bla bla) , maybe that would be a good "targeted move" - maybe a little weary of - "this line is being singled out for no-action" , but you are not going to get anywhere unless there is an actual economic / social benefit because we think we need it. (and those so and so's down South get everything on a plate) - now , in the past , Northern or predecessors could have put a bit in for Rail Passenger Partnership funding for similar actions - and in theory could be done again with a more sympathetic outlook from National funders. This was how Clitheroe got a Sunday service - now hourly - to Manchester (though the Colne - Manchester dare I mention it - did not thrive) - and others likewise.

As I keep saying - "know you market - costs and benefits" Operation nous is also not a bad skill.
 

6Gman

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Frankly - a very minor part. The fact they are still operating is a gesture on "someone" prepared to pay for the status quo. I recall a very senior manager making a genuine point on the Looe line , that they might as well make it free to users for 9 months of the year , as there was not enough revenue collected to pay for the conductor guard. Harsh - but true.

And the money it consumes could be spent elsewhere.
 

ChiefPlanner

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And the money it consumes could be spent elsewhere.

Quite - an obvious (local) view and unpublished comment at the time was Exmouth - Paignton , which could then have "murdered" those resources for the whole year. Different today.

In passing - and let;s wind people up - why run a service all year - when we could just run a high summer service as the SNCF does / did on a few coastal branches. ? Discuss - with worked examples.
 

The Ham

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Frankly - a very minor part. The fact they are still operating is a gesture on "someone" prepared to pay for the status quo. I recall a very senior manager making a genuine point on the Looe line , that they might as well make it free to users for 9 months of the year , as there was not enough revenue collected to pay for the conductor guard. Harsh - but true.

I've sometimes wondered if it would be better to do away with a load of staff, have some random ticket checks (using staff rotation around several areas) and just rely on a significant number of people just paying anyway or picking up enough in fines from the others.

Especially in tourist areas where there's a good chance that they will have come in/are going to go out on a train from further afield anyway.
 

Adrian1980uk

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Irlt frustrates me slightly that everyone talks about re-opening lines from beaching cuts when we should be looking where the need for rail links is. New routes rather than a re-hash of old lines as population centres are not always in the same places they were in the 60s.
 

tbtc

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Well, I believe in looking at real costs, rather than relying on naive Thatcherite ideology to assume that everything will sddenly become cheaper through the private sector

Look at the real costs then - look at how much any construction project costs nowadays - look at how the escalating costs have hampered building plans across the country (not just rail ones but various other public/private building projects that have become more and more expensive).

Your "it was alright in the '80s" approach (wooden platforms etc) isn't going to help anyone in the twenty first century.

A rolling programme of upgrades would help bring costs down as it enables you to build up an experienced team, improve standardised designs etc. There's plenty of evidence wrt the benefits of rolling programmes of electrification in other European countries. But hey, that would require the DfT to actually commit to something over the long term (decades), rather than promising yet another feasibility study into reversing Beeching to grab votes in the next 3 months, then changing their mind again afterwards.

Ideally, yes, but we don't seem to be able to maintain momentum when it comes to such things - I think that, if we'd been able to do the GWML electrification on time and on budget then we'd be finished the MML by now with plans to continue electrification beyond the CP5 commitments.

Frustrating.

Do you really consider that Liskeard-Looe, or Llandudno Jn-Blaenau, or Middlesbrough-Whitby are "vital to the country's transport needs"?

Yes I do. Whitby and Looe all have their part to play in the National economy and culture, and their railways are vital in enabling those communities to do so.

Why on earth would anyone think that they weren't ?

Of course they aren't vital to the country's transport needs - they are backwater lines with low passenger numbers - you could close them all today without affecting 99.99% of the population.

Wouldn’t Bletchley to Bedford have done that though? Similar type of line, service, catchment.

Bletchley to Bedford is an inconvenient truth for the people wanting to link radial routes - the various lines between the WCML/ MML/ ECML between the Gospel Oak - Barking line and the Birmingham - Derby line have pretty low numbers - Watford Junction to St Albans is a relative backwater, Bletchley to Bedford was okay with an hourly 153 (before getting 230s), even Birmingham to Peterborough is only an hourly Turbostar (half hourly as far as Leicester)... which makes me think that any plans for other "east-west" lines are going to be struggling for numbers.

Things like Northampton to Leicester sound good in theory but it feels more like an "hourly Sprinter" route to me.

My local doctors surgery doesn't make any revenue at all.

I still wouldn't be without it though.

If we're serious as a country, about providing opportunities and spreading wealth beyond the Cities, then we need services like the Looe and the Whitby lines. The alternative is stagnation.

Come on... nobody expects a NHS GP surgery to be profitable - but it isn't unreasonable to expect mass transportation to have at least a certain number of passengers to justify its existence - just like a Surgery with too many GPS and insufficient patients would have to adjust (and hospitals expand/close in line with patient numbers), so should a railway that has numbers more suited to a minibus.

It may come as a surprise to some, but heavy rail isn't always the answer to everything.

Irlt frustrates me slightly that everyone talks about re-opening lines from beaching cuts when we should be looking where the need for rail links is. New routes rather than a re-hash of old lines as population centres are not always in the same places they were in the 60s.

Agreed - sadly the shady politicians know that "lets re-open some lines that closed fifty years ago" will play well to the nostalgic types, the baby boomers, the people who thought everything was better back in the good old days, the kind of people who they want to get to vote for them - I agree that population centres have changed, demand has changed, we should be building a railway fit for 2050 rather than one hidebound with where a Victorian entrepreneur built a line in the 1850s.
 

Bald Rick

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My local doctors surgery doesn't make any revenue at all.

I still wouldn't be without it though.

To pick up on this point (and being pedantic, I know)...

1) your doctor’s surgery is almost certainly making revenue, in the way it is paid for the services it provides by the NHS. My NHS surgery does, plenty of it.

2) your doctor’s surgery provides a rather different type of service. Everybody needs a doctor at some point in their lives. If you are seriously ill, you go to a doctor, there’s no alternative. Howeve there are plenty of alternatives to a rail service, which (in some cases) are actually far more efficient and effective in providing the output: getting from A to B.
 

The Ham

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Bletchley to Bedford is an inconvenient truth for the people wanting to link radial routes - the various lines between the WCML/ MML/ ECML between the Gospel Oak - Barking line and the Birmingham - Derby line have pretty low numbers - Watford Junction to St Albans is a relative backwater, Bletchley to Bedford was okay with an hourly 153 (before getting 230s), even Birmingham to Peterborough is only an hourly Turbostar (half hourly as far as Leicester)... which makes me think that any plans for other "east-west" lines are going to be struggling for numbers.

Things like Northampton to Leicester sound good in theory but it feels more like an "hourly Sprinter" route to me.

However other radial routes can do very well, as an example Reading to Redhill/Gatwick is 2tph and can be fairly busy 3 coach 166's in the peaks and even off peak aren't that quiet. With 3tph due to happen soon (although was announced about 3 years ago and is yet another case of us taking a long time to get on with a rail improvement which is needed).

Ah but that goes through a fairly urban area some may reply, this is true. However it also has a second line which duplicates (either serving the same stations or stations within a few miles of each other) bits of it at 2tph and even those services are well used, although do not appear quite as busy as they are 4 coach EMU's.

In fact there's probably a fair case for connecting between the SWML and the line through Camberley to improve the interaction between the main line and the radial routes as neither have a good connection (the Reading Redhill line requires a 15 minute walk across Farnborough whilst the Gatwick services don't call at Farnborough North). Such a link would require a grade separated junction and could allow a new service to run Basingstoke to Ascot as a stopping service.

This would increase capacity for the local communities without a very large cost. Probably the cost of the junction would be circa £100 million, and to provide a half hourly service would require 4 extra EMU's. This could also serve (with a few miles of extra electrification) the new development of Manydown to the West of Basingstoke, which (with a expected population of 8,000) could fairly easily see rail usage of about 500,000 a year.

If you assume it'll add 10% to other stations (excluding Basingstoke, even though you'd be doubling the frequency at many stations and by at least 50% at others) that's another half a million to million passengers a year. To break even, assuming £110,000 per coach in least costs and other costs being about 3 times your lease costs, that's an average ticket cost of £3.50 to £5.50 per passenger (£7 to £11 return) which would be fairly high for local travel.

However it's not unlikely that passenger numbers could be higher. For instance if it's 2 million passengers a year that's down to £5.30 return. Also the costs could be a bit high, in that typically total TOC costs are the times that of the lease costs, however with (as an example) no extra stations some of those costs would already be covered.

Agreed - sadly the shady politicians know that "lets re-open some lines that closed fifty years ago" will play well to the nostalgic types, the baby boomers, the people who thought everything was better back in the good old days, the kind of people who they want to get to vote for them - I agree that population centres have changed, demand has changed, we should be building a railway fit for 2050 rather than one hidebound with where a Victorian entrepreneur built a line in the 1850s.

That's nothing new, Ronald Reagan was using it as a policy when he was appealing to those who were young in the 50's and 60's to get elected in the 80's. It's very easy to point to someone's youth and say "wouldn't you like it is life was more like it was when you were in your teens/early twenties?" As more often than not people would say yes, for the simple reason that their life was much simpler then and they tend to be less aware of what's going on around them and even if they are how many 15 year olds would be that interested in the ins and outs of whether doing X or Y is a good thing or not (as an example the invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan under Tony Blair).

Yet ally most people of they would like life to be like it was in the 90's and those aged 30 to 40 would probably agree that life was better then, whilst if you ask about the 80's those aged 40 to 50 would agree that life was better then. However ask older people and they'd highlight the recessions that happened and suggest that the 70's or 60's would be a better time to be alive. All would say things like, life was simpler then there wasn't the ability to be contacted all the time, there wasn't the worldwide problems that we have now and children could be children without having to grow up too fast. All I'd say is the ignorance of teenage life significantly colours your view of what life was really like.
 

ChiefPlanner

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Yet ally most people of they would like life to be like it was in the 90's and those aged 30 to 40 would probably agree that life was better then, whilst if you ask about the 80's those aged 40 to 50 would agree that life was better then. However ask older people and they'd highlight the recessions that happened and suggest that the 70's or 60's would be a better time to be alive. All would say things like, life was simpler then there wasn't the ability to be contacted all the time, there wasn't the worldwide problems that we have now and children could be children without having to grow up too fast. All I'd say is the ignorance of teenage life significantly colours your view of what life was really like.


A very interesting set of observations , and it sorts of reinforces the "hopeless" nostalgia we have as a nation to the "comfortable past"* , fuelled by the writings of Betjeman etc an eulogsing steam trains and hot buttered toast etc. Akin to one of our ex PM's enthusing about maiden ladies cycling to Evensong etc. (not seen many of those in post code AL , and they would be at severe risk from badly driven 4x4 and BMW's)

So back to objectivism about railways role , best markets and realistic costs and delivery. Some encouraging comments coming through - not just rebuilding what was torn up in the past as technology and so on rendered changes which removed "quaint" lines of character. I am not aware of (say) the French clamouring for the rebuilding of the thousands of miles of metre gauge steam tramways built from the 1880's by local funding and all swept away from the 1920's. That is not to say they have a niche group of people who have documented them and written about them - which is excellent.

(* the comfortable past which has 15 year olds legally employed in the 1930's down Welsh coal mines , as it was cheaper to employ them in a recessionary era , and sack them when they got to the age of 18. There was not much glory either in manning the stokehold of a trans - Atlantic greyhound and so on).

So look back with respect , and move on.

Woodhead as a coal carrying Trans-Pennine line is not coming back , neither is the 4 tpd Brynamman West to Pantyffynon - Llanell passenger service.
 

yorksrob

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In reality , maybe a 2 car (153's not being normal traction down there with all the issues on TC knowledge etc and route clearance - bla bla) , maybe that would be a good "targeted move" - maybe a little weary of - "this line is being singled out for no-action" , but you are not going to get anywhere unless there is an actual economic / social benefit because we think we need it. (and those so and so's down South get everything on a plate) - now , in the past , Northern or predecessors could have put a bit in for Rail Passenger Partnership funding for similar actions - and in theory could be done again with a more sympathetic outlook from National funders. This was how Clitheroe got a Sunday service - now hourly - to Manchester (though the Colne - Manchester dare I mention it - did not thrive) - and others likewise.

As I keep saying - "know you market - costs and benefits" Operation nous is also not a bad skill.

Well, as far as I can tell, the market for the Whitby line seems to be for leisure visitors into the town. Heavily skewed towards (but not exclusively consisting of) those from the North East.

It's not the market the proposed new trains are seeking to develop, and its not the one that, according to the transport theorists on here, should exist - but its the one that turns up.

It's questionable whether this is adequately served at present.

Look at the real costs then - look at how much any construction project costs nowadays - look at how the escalating costs have hampered building plans across the country (not just rail ones but various other public/private building projects that have become more and more expensive).

Your "it was alright in the '80s" approach (wooden platforms etc) isn't going to help anyone in the twenty first century.



Ideally, yes, but we don't seem to be able to maintain momentum when it comes to such things - I think that, if we'd been able to do the GWML electrification on time and on budget then we'd be finished the MML by now with plans to continue electrification beyond the CP5 commitments.

Frustrating.





Of course they aren't vital to the country's transport needs - they are backwater lines with low passenger numbers - you could close them all today without affecting 99.99% of the population.



Bletchley to Bedford is an inconvenient truth for the people wanting to link radial routes - the various lines between the WCML/ MML/ ECML between the Gospel Oak - Barking line and the Birmingham - Derby line have pretty low numbers - Watford Junction to St Albans is a relative backwater, Bletchley to Bedford was okay with an hourly 153 (before getting 230s), even Birmingham to Peterborough is only an hourly Turbostar (half hourly as far as Leicester)... which makes me think that any plans for other "east-west" lines are going to be struggling for numbers.

Things like Northampton to Leicester sound good in theory but it feels more like an "hourly Sprinter" route to me.



Come on... nobody expects a NHS GP surgery to be profitable - but it isn't unreasonable to expect mass transportation to have at least a certain number of passengers to justify its existence - just like a Surgery with too many GPS and insufficient patients would have to adjust (and hospitals expand/close in line with patient numbers), so should a railway that has numbers more suited to a minibus.

It may come as a surprise to some, but heavy rail isn't always the answer to everything.



Agreed - sadly the shady politicians know that "lets re-open some lines that closed fifty years ago" will play well to the nostalgic types, the baby boomers, the people who thought everything was better back in the good old days, the kind of people who they want to get to vote for them - I agree that population centres have changed, demand has changed, we should be building a railway fit for 2050 rather than one hidebound with where a Victorian entrepreneur built a line in the 1850s.

I'd be interested to know what exactly about wooden platform "isn't going to help anyone in the twentieth century" ?

Are you saying that we shouldn't look at the cost of structures and take account of what has been proven to work ?

And as for your comment regarding how many people would notice if the Whitby line wasn't there, what percentage of the population do you think would notice if there wasn't a doctors surgery in Wick, or a post office in Helston, or a police station in Penrith, for that matter. These are all nationally important because they are part of national services serving the local need. Just like Looe or Whitby station.
 

yorksrob

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To pick up on this point (and being pedantic, I know)...

1) your doctor’s surgery is almost certainly making revenue, in the way it is paid for the services it provides by the NHS. My NHS surgery does, plenty of it.

2) your doctor’s surgery provides a rather different type of service. Everybody needs a doctor at some point in their lives. If you are seriously ill, you go to a doctor, there’s no alternative. Howeve there are plenty of alternatives to a rail service, which (in some cases) are actually far more efficient and effective in providing the output: getting from A to B.

Well, the doctors surgery is assessed according to the good it provides to the local community, just as the local railway station should be, rather than purely on the financial return to the NHS management.

I'm sure that the burghers and businesses of Looe will be happy to tell anyone what they assess the value of the local train service is.

In terms of there being other options, such as here today, gone tomorrow bus services or cars that cost hundreds of pounds before they get off the driveway, it really doesn't cut it I'm afraid as a national public transport network. Just because some people choose to drive everywhere, doesn't mean we should all be forced to accept a substantial decline in public transport.
 

Sleeperwaking

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Ideally, yes, but we don't seem to be able to maintain momentum when it comes to such things - I think that, if we'd been able to do the GWML electrification on time and on budget then we'd be finished the MML by now with plans to continue electrification beyond the CP5 commitments.

Frustrating.
Replace the word "we" with "DfT" and you'd be about there. The DfT didn't have the patience to push through the initial part of the bathtub curve and cancelled a lot of the following electrification projects before the lessons learned could be put into practice. So the teams that managed to build up the knowledge and experience will be broken up and all that will be lost.
 

underbank

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I've sometimes wondered if it would be better to do away with a load of staff, have some random ticket checks (using staff rotation around several areas) and just rely on a significant number of people just paying anyway or picking up enough in fines from the others.

Especially in tourist areas where there's a good chance that they will have come in/are going to go out on a train from further afield anyway.

I think you may be onto something there.

I find it interesting when in European cities that there is often very little in the way of ticket inspections - it seems to run on the basis of "honesty".

In Berlin, in particular, there weren't even barriers on the train/underground stations we used and no signs of people checking tickets - someone must have done some figures of the likely loss from fare avoidance compared with the costs of barriers/staffing etc.

In Barcelona & Rome, it all seemed to be self-policed on the buses where they have machines on the bus for you to enter your ticket but no one seemed to be bothered if you did or not - I assume the ones who didn't had some kind of pass. Don't know how enforcement staff could check - presumably if an inspector got on, he'd be visible/obvious, so anyone without a ticket would just get off at one of the other doors.

In the Amsterdam trams, there were sensors on entry where you should swipe your ticket, which most people did, but no one did anything about the ones who didn't or when the swipe machine "pinged" with an invalid card.

I think for longer/expensive journeys, it's a no brainer to have proper controls, barriers, inspection staff, etc., but for the short/cheap journeys, I can't really see the costs of proper enforcement could ever be covered - at the end of the day, most people are honest and would pay whether or not they reasonably thought they'd be challenged, so the costs of enforcement for the few who deliberately don't pay can't be covered.

Of course, if, say you have a guard/train manager or whatever on a train, then it's a no brainer they at least attempt to check tickets on board, even the shorter/cheaper journeys.
 

RLBH

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Come on... nobody expects a NHS GP surgery to be profitable
The surgery partners - usually the GPs themselves - certainly do. Their income comes from the money the NHS pays them to provide services, plus a bit from patients for non-NHS services. What's left after paying the bills is profit; it's also what they use to pay themselves a salary, so they rely on the surgery to be profitable to get paid.

Yes, virtually all GPs are private practices contracted by the NHS. The fact that most people don't realise this demonstrates that a hybrid model of public funding for private suppliers can work in the right circumstances.
In Berlin, in particular, there weren't even barriers on the train/underground stations we used and no signs of people checking tickets - someone must have done some figures of the likely loss from fare avoidance compared with the costs of barriers/staffing etc.
Apparently the German approach to revenue protection is for inspectors to show mob-handed in plain clothes to randomly selected trains, put one person at each end of each carriage, and start checking tickets once the doors close. The doors don't get opened until every ticket has been checked, and there's a stiff on-the-spot fine for anyone without a valid ticket.
 

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How do you know he (Grant ) is a cynical opportunist? Give the man time please. if the government get back and if after 5 years nothing has changed then yes, you can call him that but not after about 6 weeks in the job.
Regarding the Railways there`s more weasel words coming out of the labour party . Just look at how many miles labour electrified in their 13 years in power. Not even in double figures I think you will find.

Totally agree. I think officially Labour just squeezed double figure miles electrified. I will try and find a link. Pretty sure it was 10 miles.
 

Djgr

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Yes, virtually all GPs are private practices contracted by the NHS. The fact that most people don't realise this demonstrates that a hybrid model of public funding for private suppliers can work in the right circumstances.

Except it is probably a much more expensive way of doing things than if GPs had been forced to become public servants with a salary at the start of the NHS.
 

Djgr

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Totally agree. I think officially Labour just squeezed double figure miles electrified. I will try and find a link. Pretty sure it was 10 miles.
Quote

The sad thing is that cynical opportunist people like Shapps do this because they know that that's where votes are - both in the general public and in significant numbers of "enthusiasts" - it's not about problem solving, it's about "comfortable" policies for nostalgic people. Hence getting over a hundred posts on here, because unquantified nostalgia never goes out of fashion.

How do you know he is a cynical opportunist? Give the man time p;lease. if the government get back and if after 5 years nothing has changed then yes, you can call him that but not after about 6 weeks in the job.
Regarding the Railways there`s more weasel words coming out of the labour party . Just look at how many miles labour electrified in their 13 years in power. Not even in double figures I think you will find.

Could someone clarify what these weasel words are please, so we move the debate beyond Daily Mail standard?
 

GRALISTAIR

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Could someone clarify what these weasel words are please, so we move the debate beyond Daily Mail standard?

You using the phrase "weasel" to me means you have already lowered the standard to the Daily Mail. Attack the argument - please no ad hominems.

The facts are in 13 years of power Labour electrified virtually nothing. PERIOD
Grant Schapps has had very little time in the job. That is a fact not """""weasel"""" words ad hominem attacks. Debate gets stifled when words like this are used.
 
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Djgr

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You using the phrase "weasel" to me means you have already lowered the standard to the Daily Mail. Attack the argument - please no ad hominems.

The facts are in 13 years of power Labour electrified virtually nothing. PERIOD
Grant Schapps has had very little time in the job. That is a fact not """""weasel"""" words ad hominem attacks. Debate gets stifled when words like this are used.

I didn't originate the phrase weasel words, mate. I was quoting someone who did.
 

CdBrux

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That's all well and good, but do you think the upgrade to Oxford - Bicester of which you speak, would have happened at all had the line not been reopened in the first place ?

I suspect not.

As a country we fall into the trap of thinking a modest improvement won't be good enough, then nothing at all gets done


Quite right, could there not be some places where a modest service, maybe not direct to the main destination but requiring a well timed change, and maybe using some cheaper rolling stock such as a 230 or similar, start the ball rolling, get some money and demonstrate better the reality of the business case. Do something quick and cheap rather than wait for (n)ever for an expensive solution. It may well even speed up the expensive solution getting approved! In the meantime the money available goes around more places. Just need to accept some may never demonstrate the case for the next step of upgrades and some may have to be stopped after a few years.
 

CdBrux

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That’s your opinion, and that’s fine.

Why do you think the line between Bicester and Bletchley is being reopened, given that there hasn’t been a minimalist reopening of the route first?

Was the starting point (vs Bicester to Oxford) broadly the same, i.e. as I understand could a minimal service have been provided at minimalist cost?
 

6Gman

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I'm sure that the burghers and businesses of Looe will be happy to tell anyone what they assess the value of the local train service is.

Marginal, I would imagine.

Your original claim was not that these branches were of benefit to the locality, but were nationally important.

Which - frankly - they are not.
 

6Gman

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Well, the doctors surgery is assessed according to the good it provides to the local community, just as the local railway station should be, rather than purely on the financial return to the NHS management.

Actually, it's assessed on both. If it's not providing good care it can be closed down. But equally if the unit costs are too high it can be closed down.
 
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