Northern to Scarborough postponed

fireftrm · 27 Oct 2019

Local papers are reporting that the promised hourly Northern service York to Scarborough has been postponed until 'later next year' the reason being that infrastructure works haven't been completed. What infrastructure works?
https://www.gazetteherald.co.uk/news/17985409.extra-trains-malton-delayed-later-next-year/

Northern had planned to run every hour from York to Scarborough, alongside the TransPennine Express service, offering passengers a train every half-hour.

The move, which was expected to be in place by December, would have increased seats from 169 per hour to 450, with an extra 14 trains a day.

However, plans for the new service have now been pushed into next year, due to delays with infrastructure projects, with no firm date for introduction of the enhanced service."

Actually I didn't read it there I read it in a pub where a newspaper was lying on the counter and its not a paper I would otherwise have ever seen, or visited its website. Having searched for the story I found the name of the paper and an article that is in more depth

RailUK Forums

Jorge Da Silva · 27 Oct 2019

fireftrm said:
Local papers are reporting that the promised hourly Northern service York to Scarborough has been postponed until 'later next year' the reason being that infrastructure works haven't been completed. What infrastructure works?

Around York maybe?

Ianno87 · 27 Oct 2019

Guess: Level Crossing works

Llama · 27 Oct 2019

Probably still blaming Blackpool...

Harpers Tate · 28 Oct 2019

There was a post here some months back which (IIRC) described the bid for paths as having been refused by Network Rail - but I don't recall seeing any reason. I find it difficult to grasp how the present pattern (1x TPE per hour, each way - passing at the the only real pinch-point on the route, Malton, within a few minutes i.e. leaving Malton free of movements for something like 45 minutes per hour) is the cause. Unless there are some unsignalled block sections that take >25 minutes or so to traverse, that need breaking up.

blackfive460 · 28 Oct 2019

The 'official' reason I've had from someone at Northern quoting Northern's planning team is:

The original plan was to introduce the direct services with the December change, however due to the delay in receiving the new rolling stock from the manufacturer CAF we are unable to implement any brand new services at present, we simply do not have the rolling stock available at present without further affecting the capacity issues on the wider network.

I appreciate that this is disappointing, however the team have confirmed that they expect to introduce these services in 2020, however cannot confirm a date at present.

May or December 2020 then. December would seem most likely the way things are going.

fireftrm · 28 Oct 2019

I think blackfive460 has the answer, the idea that the infrastructure cannot cope with additional services was rather destroyed over this last year when TPE driver training on 68s meant regular runs between the present services. So the capacity exists.....I think the local press release has been to take the pressure off Northern being at fault!

swt_passenger · 28 Oct 2019

fireftrm said:
I think blackfive460 has the answer, the idea that the infrastructure cannot cope with additional services was rather destroyed over this last year when TPE driver training on 68s meant regular runs between the present services. So the capacity exists.....I think the local press release has been to take the pressure off Northern being at fault!

Either that or the local rag doesn’t know the meaning of the word infrastructure. Which is quite likely these days...

Bertie the bus · 28 Oct 2019

It won't be the local rag's fault. Avid Northern observers are well aware of Northern taking responsibilty for absolutely nothing. Everything is somebody else's fault whilst Northern are apparently busy delivering on their promises.

fireftrm · 28 Oct 2019

swt_passenger said:
Either that or the local rag doesn’t know the meaning of the word infrastructure. Which is quite likely these days...

You'll see in the article that Northern did mention infrastructure, but now seeing the online article (which is more detailed than the paper on the pub bar) I rather suspect that is a very generic statement covering all their promised new services, not just Scarborough

swt_passenger · 28 Oct 2019

fireftrm said:
You'll see in the article that Northern did mention infrastructure, but now seeing the online article (which is more detailed than the paper on the pub bar) I rather suspect that is a very generic statement covering all their promised new services, not just Scarborough

That makes more sense, thanks.

Class 170101 · 28 Oct 2019

fireftrm said:
I think blackfive460 has the answer, the idea that the infrastructure cannot cope with additional services was rather destroyed over this last year when TPE driver training on 68s meant regular runs between the present services. So the capacity exists.....I think the local press release has been to take the pressure off Northern being at fault!

Ianno87 said:
Guess: Level Crossing works

The above from Ianno87 is still plausible even if the track capacity exists as shown by the Class 68 training trips. They would have been short term planning unlike Northern's extra services which may fail the level crossing assessments as they would be there for the long term and need to account for further STP moves that may come up as and when.

geoffk · 28 Oct 2019

Presumably this will use platform 2 at York. What's the latest on new stations at Haxby and/or Strensall?

Fisherman80 · 28 Oct 2019

Apart from Malton,isn't this line double track all the way from Scarborough to York? I find it staggering to think that not more than 1 or 2 trains an hour cannot be accommodated.

Esker-pades · 28 Oct 2019

Fisherman80 said:
Apart from Malton,isn't this line double track all the way from Scarborough to York? I find it staggering to think that not more than 1 or 2 trains an hour cannot be accommodated.

And a short section just outside York.

The problem, as stated in the thread, is rolling stock shortages not line capacity.

Llandudno · 28 Oct 2019

Capacity can’t be much of an issue, as plenty of steam trains have used the line in between Transpennine trains in recent years.

David Dunning · 29 Oct 2019

The story was first published by Minster FM on October 15th and although at that stage Northern had not provided a full statement they told me the main reason was shortage of trains to run the service. The York to Scarborough line appears perfectly capable of running two trains an hour as it stands although possibly not exactly 30 mins apart.

Bertie the bus · 29 Oct 2019

Shortage of trains is about as believable as incomplete infrastructure works. Pacers aren't going this year. They have already stated they will be keeping 34 into next year so keeping a couple more to release stock for the Scarborough service just wouldn't be an issue at all.

Spartacus · 29 Oct 2019

Guessing getting traincrews signing the route while also trying with some difficulty to get crews cleared on new units while also struggling to maintain a full Sunday service may be a factor in that.

DarloRich · 29 Oct 2019

Bertie the bus said:
It won't be the local rag's fault. Avid Northern observers are well aware of Northern taking responsibilty for absolutely nothing. Everything is somebody else's fault whilst Northern are apparently busy delivering on their promises.

they seem to have taken responsibility ( they don't have any trains) in the quoted message and taken a sensible decision not to impact further on their core routes.

Bertie the bus said:
Shortage of trains is about as believable as incomplete infrastructure works. Pacers aren't going this year. They have already stated they will be keeping 34 into next year so keeping a couple more to release stock for the Scarborough service just wouldn't be an issue at all.

It is almost like you have an axe to grind. Northern have said they don't have the fleet available to offer these services without impacting on their core routes and upsetting even more people.

Can we try to be accurate in our criticism of Northern?

Bertie the bus · 29 Oct 2019

DarloRich said:
It is almost like you have an axe to grind. Northern have said they don't have the fleet available to offer these services without impacting on their core routes and upsetting even more people.

Can we try to be accurate in our criticism of Northern?

Sorry. Obviously if a company that consistently lies to the press, its customers and local politicians says something we should just automatically believe it. There is no need for a shortage of units as I have pointed out.

Northern won't be operating it because they don't want to. Whether that is because they don't have the drivers or are just cutting costs to the bone and don't want to start up a new loss making service I don't know. What I do know is the reason they have given isn't true.

DarloRich · 29 Oct 2019

Bertie the bus said:
What I do know is the reason they have given isn't true.

Please feel free to set out, using verifiable information, what the true reason is. Until then can we try to avoid rabid, tin foil based, conspiracy theories?

Bertie the bus said:
There is no need for a shortage of units as I have pointed out.

But there clearly is. The new units are late. Your view is that they should short form elsewhere on the network to deliver the service to Scarborough.

Failed Unit · 29 Oct 2019

Be interesting when it starts what impact it will have on TPE. Will they be less keen to turn around early or more when things go wrong. From what I hear northern will get the passengers if they can run the service to time. Not that matters to ORCATs. The northern train could be full and the TPE empty but they get the same share of the inter available tickets.

Bantamzen · 30 Oct 2019

Bertie the bus said:
Sorry. Obviously if a company that consistently lies to the press, its customers and local politicians says something we should just automatically believe it. There is no need for a shortage of units as I have pointed out.

Northern won't be operating it because they don't want to. Whether that is because they don't have the drivers or are just cutting costs to the bone and don't want to start up a new loss making service I don't know. What I do know is the reason they have given isn't true.

Or they are not starting the service because they don't have the units, as clearly stated. And it might not be as simple as just putting a couple of temporally retained Pacers on the route. They are running behind on driver training as a result of the delays to the delivery & acceptance of the new units, which means there are knock-on effects. It isn't just the Scarborough service that has been delayed, others have been pushed back too. You can conspire all you like, but the service will run when it can be effectively staffed & units are available.

wezmerc · 30 Oct 2019

Has there even been the paths available for Northern to do route learning between York and Scarborough given TPE have lots of their own training/testing going on?

tbtc · 30 Oct 2019

DarloRich said:
they seem to have taken responsibility ( they don't have any trains) in the quoted message and taken a sensible decision not to impact further on their core routes

Agreed - at a time when they seem to lack the stock and staff to run the existing services, I'd be disappointed if Northern started allocated DMUs/ drivers/ guards to training on a line that has been wholly TPE (since TPE became a separate franchise) - Northern have enough on their plate running existing routes and if there are spare resources (which there aren't) then these should be used firstly to bolster short formations on existing busy Northern routes and secondly to provide committed frequency increases on traditional *Northern* routes (e.g. Knutsford)... spreading resources thinner to compete on a route that Northern don't already run shouldn't be a priority.

I'd support TPE using "spare" 185s on a York - Scarborough service (assuming that there are some 185s spare, once the 802s/mk5s are fully introduced and sufficient Hope Valley services doubled up) - I'm not against improvements through Malton - I think that there's an argument that this line would have been better off with more York shuttles (and fewer services running all the way over the Pennines, given the unreliability) - but it's not Northern's problem to solve (yet Northern will get the blame).

Spartacus · 30 Oct 2019

I think given all other events elsewhere the only way Northern could possibly have introduced a Scarborough - York shuttle this December would have been by drafting in another operator such as WCRC!

sjpowermac · 30 Oct 2019

Spartacus said:
I think given all other events elsewhere the only way Northern could possibly have introduced a Scarborough - York shuttle this December would have been by drafting in another operator such as WCRC!

That would have created too many dilemmas for the loco haulage enthusiasts

Townsend Hook · 30 Oct 2019

Spartacus said:
I think given all other events elsewhere the only way Northern could possibly have introduced a Scarborough - York shuttle this December would have been by drafting in another operator such as WCRC!

That already exists, it's called the Scarborough Spa Express

mike57 · 1 Nov 2019

That Northern are unable to introduce this service is a big disappointment to users of this line. Since May 2018 the York - Scarborough service has been unreliable to the point of being unusable. As an example this week on Tuesday out of 18 arrivals into Scarborough 9 were 10 or more minutes late and 2 were cancelled, of the late trains several were 30 ish minutes late, this is typical performance these days. A Northern shuttle would mean that you could plan journeys around that. Would another operator be able to cobble something together, even something that offered journeys during the morning and evening peaks would be better than nothing, I am thinking about the shuttle that ran on the Windermere branch for example. Using platform 2 at York the only other section shared with another operator is Seamer to Scarborough, and that only has 2 trains per hour each way.

Northern to Scarborough postponed

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