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Progression Or Regression ?

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delt1c

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A bit of tongue in cheek here before the IT get out their guns to try and shoot me down. Anyway reading about the further troubles with the Caledonian sleeper stock and software issues on other modern stock, makes me wonder if our desire for stock with all singing all dancing fitments is really progression. Cant ever remember MK1's been taken out of service with stiff hinges on doors, or sticking windows for ventilation. Likewise Buckeye couplers rarely refused to talk to each other. Toilets invariably worked and we got to our destination. We had newspapers, books and enjoyed the view outside, so no complaints about WIFI not working. We didnt need quiet coaches as the person opposite was not on the phone, watching a movie or listening to music without headphones.
 
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TRAX

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But you were hotter in the summer, colder in the winter, it was noisier (quiet coach ?), less comfortable, and you died more in the event of accidents.
 

delt1c

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Now where did I put that bullet proof vest? Bullets flying already
 

Bantamzen

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A bit of tongue in cheek here before the IT get out their guns to try and shoot me down. Anyway reading about the further troubles with the Caledonian sleeper stock and software issues on other modern stock, makes me wonder if our desire for stock with all singing all dancing fitments is really progression. Cant ever remember MK1's been taken out of service with stiff hinges on doors, or sticking windows for ventilation. Likewise Buckeye couplers rarely refused to talk to each other. Toilets invariably worked and we got to our destination. We had newspapers, books and enjoyed the view outside, so no complaints about WIFI not working. We didnt need quiet coaches as the person opposite was not on the phone, watching a movie or listening to music without headphones.

Lock & load..... ;)

Seriously though, imagine for a minute if anyone had said the same thing 30 or 40 years ago about airliners? There are good reasons for these progressions, but unfortunately there is always going to be a period of testing / learning. In the skies it is quite easy to simulate normal operation, find a bit with no traffic, stick a load of staff / volunteers on, try it out. On Britain's tracks there is little to no capacity for this kind of out-of-service testing, so there will always be a period of snagging.

And forgive me for saying this, but the rose-tinted view of the "simpler" past stock probably ignores all the kinds of problems they had too. I remember the introduction of the 141s, beset with issues and snags, and as @TRAX says units that were brilliantly too warm in summer, blumming freezing in winter, and with brilliant "simple" features like doors that never really closed properly, great for when being on one, squeezed against said doors when packed and bouncing up out of Bradford on the way to Leeds.

<nostalgic sigh>

And APT anyone? Imagine if after that BR & the government had given up and gone home? We'd still be riding around in ancient MKI based stock, slowly rattling themselves apart. Some enthusiasts might love the nostalgia, but the regular punters would be diving into their cars at such a rate that the inevitable cuts would have made Beeching's cuts look like something off of Blue Peter. The long term gains for the upgrades we are seeing might cause a few problems at the start, but they will help deliver a system fit for the 21st century as opposed to the 19th.

I could go on, but it is easy to remember in this ever online society, that today's problems might seem much more worse with all the talk about them, that doesn't mean that the past was a breeze in comparison. Because it most certainly wasn't!

Well, you did ask..... :E
 
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TRAX

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I remember the introduction of the 141s, beset with issues and snags, and as @Andrew Holland says units that were brilliantly too warm in summer, blumming freezing in winter

I... I said that ! :'(

I could go on, but it is easy to remember in this ever online society, that today's problems might seem much more worse with all the talk about them, that doesn't mean that the past was a breeze in comparison. Because it most certainly wasn't!

We’re in heaven so we think we live in hell...
 

delt1c

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Exit left to the nuclear bunker, last bullet just missed my left "Ouch".
 

aleandrail

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But you were hotter in the summer, colder in the winter, it was noisier (quiet coach ?), less comfortable, and you died more in the event of accidents.

I thought all carriages were quieter back then due to being pulled by something decent up front, seats were certainly more comfortable. Can remember some cold journeys though .
 

TRAX

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Comfortable if you think soft is good for your back health. Ask our ancestors how their backs felt in the long run.
 

sprinterguy

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Likewise Buckeye couplers rarely refused to talk to each other.
Though it did happen occasionally: In the days when the Settle and Carlisle was served solely by a sporadic service of local loco-hauled trains, sourced from the tattiest mark 1s BR had to hand, there is a tale of a driver having to abandon as a bad job joining two mark 1 coaches to two others, and take the train forward as just a two car formation as the couplers were simply too worn to work effectively.

Though that's more a maintenance issue than a compatibility issue, and I do agree with the sentiment that perhaps some elements of the operational railway have been overcomplicated purely because the technology is available. Does everything on a modern train that's software controlled really need to be?

Conversely modern developments have also brought many innovations that have improved comfort and efficiency (Air conditioning, better door seals, improved passenger information, electric traction and push-pull or multiple unit operation), but there does seem to have been a significant loss of compatibility and "plug and play" ability: Modern loco hauled carriages (as per TPE) are in permanently coupled sets, compatible only with themselves and specially modified locomotives, and Caledonian Sleeper's new carriage fleet is reliant on just two classes of locomotives fitted with special couplings and adaptations, to the class 92s, to suit the stock's train supply requirements. I'm not even sure what benefits the Dellner autocouplers on the Caledonian Sleeper mark 5s are supposed to bestow, given that the brake and electrical connections are still made with traditional pipes and cables that need to be separately attached and detached en route.
 
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4REP

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I thought all carriages were quieter back then due to being pulled by something decent up front, seats were certainly more comfortable. Can remember some cold journeys though .
certainly were quiet as we did not have people being noisy withere phones as they were not much or around then.
you could have a conversation with a stranger.you could have face to face conversations.
my opinion we have regressed! and alienating ourselves. I also agree seats were comfortable and we had compartments.
no blinds which cause conflicts with other passengers.
doors that worked.
Buffet cars and restaurant cars we had and much more.
gone are the days when you can mingle in a buffet car and talk to people with a pint of beer.
WE HAVE REGRESSED!!
 

Bantamzen

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certainly were quiet as we did not have people being noisy withere phones as they were not much or around then.
you could have a conversation with a stranger.you could have face to face conversations.
my opinion we have regressed! and alienating ourselves. I also agree seats were comfortable and we had compartments.
no blinds which cause conflicts with other passengers.
doors that worked.
Buffet cars and restaurant cars we had and much more.
gone are the days when you can mingle in a buffet car and talk to people with a pint of beer.
WE HAVE REGRESSED!!

I know the technological developments on trains have been blamed for a lot of things, but I don't think a lack of conversation amongst strangers can be one of them. And from what I remember of the 1970s & 1980s, most people just hid behind newspapers instead of mobile phones.
 

delt1c

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I know the technological developments on trains have been blamed for a lot of things, but I don't think a lack of conversation amongst strangers can be one of them. And from what I remember of the 1970s & 1980s, most people just hid behind newspapers instead of mobile phones.
Sorry but in the 70's we did make conversation with those around us, now in many cases you have to avoid making eye contact in case it is taken as disrespect
 

Bantamzen

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Sorry but in the 70's we did make conversation with those around us, now in many cases you have to avoid making eye contact in case it is taken as disrespect

I was only a youngster then, but I can remember trains being quiet with few people talking and eye contact being a faux pas. Brits have never been comfortable talking to strangers in my experience.
 

AM9

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certainly were quiet as we did not have people being noisy withere phones as they were not much or around then.
you could have a conversation with a stranger.you could have face to face conversations.
my opinion we have regressed! and alienating ourselves. ...
That's nothing to do with train design. The same difference occurs in a waiting room or a lift.
.... I also agree seats were comfortable and we had compartments.
no blinds which cause conflicts with other passengers. ...
All seats were more comfotable when you were young. The lack of conflicts were only gauranteed if you had a whole 6 or 8 seat compartment to yourself. Otherwise you were no better off than now if other(s) there had different preferences.
... doors that worked. ...
Sometimes they worked, other times, the droplight was jammed closed or wouldn't stay up, the outside handle was usually filthy, especially if it had been throuigh the 'brown mist'. That made opening it unpleasant particularly when it was stiff.
Buffet cars and restaurant cars we had and much more.
gone are the days when you can mingle in a buffet car and talk to people with a pint of beer.
Yes, sticky tables, curly sandwiches, smokers, (of which the whole train usually reeked), and plenty of Grumpy passengers. The general noise from loose couplings, worn bolsters, open, leaking, jammed open or jammed shut window ventilators etc., made conversation difficult if not pointless.
WE HAVE REGRESSED!!
Wow, what rose coloured glasses you must have.
 

Spartacus

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certainly were quiet as we did not have people being noisy withere phones as they were not much or around then.
you could have a conversation with a stranger.you could have face to face conversations.
my opinion we have regressed! and alienating ourselves. I also agree seats were comfortable and we had compartments.
no blinds which cause conflicts with other passengers.
doors that worked.
Buffet cars and restaurant cars we had and much more.
gone are the days when you can mingle in a buffet car and talk to people with a pint of beer.
WE HAVE REGRESSED!!

Lots of people with noses in broadsheets banging elbows, I can recall at least one fight breaking out due to it!
Always the risk, especially at weekends, of encountering someone with their 'tranny' blaring away, or with a walkman.
Blinds: many coaches were built with them, especially on compartment windows, but were removed due to being difficult to maintain.
Buffet cars: which spawned the old BR sandwich jokes, not without merit, which used the most popular (cheapest) bread, margarine, and filling (which if it was something sliced like ham or cheese was two slices with one cut in half to look like 3), all wrapped up nice and sweaty in cling film, to make possibly the worst sandwiches money could buy.
And I wouldn't call the seats comfortable when you got one with dodgy springs that would either poke you up the bum or sink to the frames: much as 158 cushions would sink after a little use later.
 

xotGD

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Every train design since the Mark 1 has been a regression from the passenger perspective.

The seats in the 800s are the worst I've experienced. And they are supposed to be 'state of the art'. If I want a comfy seat, I have to visit the KWVR!
 

AM9

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Every train design since the Mark 1 has been a regression from the passenger perspective.

The seats in the 800s are the worst I've experienced. And they are supposed to be 'state of the art'. If I want a comfy seat, I have to visit the KWVR!
That's your opinion, but not shared by everybody so not a 'fact'.
 

TheEdge

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Every train design since the Mark 1 has been a regression from the passenger perspective.

The seats in the 800s are the worst I've experienced. And they are supposed to be 'state of the art'. If I want a comfy seat, I have to visit the KWVR!

I wonder what Clapham would have been like if it was 800s rather than Mk1s?

Or Grayrigg if it was a Mk3 rather than a 390.

Padding on a seat is not the be all and end all measure some on here think.
 

Nick Ashwell

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Though that's more a maintenance issue than a compatibility issue, and I do agree with the sentiment that perhaps some elements of the operational railway have been overcomplicated purely because the technology is available. Does everything on a modern train that's software-controlled really need to be?

Easier and cheaper to change the software in the future rather than having to have everything hardwired and needing a hardware change for upgrades. With modern technology such as FPGAs (Field Programmable Gate Array) we are at the point where, as is often seen you can just plug a laptop into an RJ45 port to make changes, thus minimizing the time out of service for upgrades/updates. Look at the Class 800s for example, they started off less powerful than the 802s yet have since been updated without any change in hardware to deliver more power.
 

43096

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But you were hotter in the summer, colder in the winter, it was noisier (quiet coach ?), less comfortable, and you died more in the event of accidents.
Intrigued as to how someone can die more. You’re either dead or not.
 

Master29

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Mk 1 coaches often has a lousy window seating ratio on corridor trains, but again subjective as my view.
 

Master29

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Sorry but in the 70's we did make conversation with those around us, now in many cases you have to avoid making eye contact in case it is taken as disrespect
On long inter city journeys strangers are more inclined to talk, though perhaps a little less so nowadays. It`s on commuter/suburban services that people almost never speak unless they`re with the people they`re talking to but then this has always been the case.
 

TheEdge

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Intrigued as to how someone can die more. You’re either dead or not.

It fairly obviously a tongue in cheek comment about the vastly improved survivability of modern rolling stock.

But this is of course the retentivly literal RUK.
 

delt1c

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Mk 1 coaches often has a lousy window seating ratio on corridor trains, but again subjective as my view.
Please expand, on Mk1 stock EVERY seating bay has its own window regardless if 1st or standard class same with Mk2 so what is lousy? are you saying that you want seating without a window?
 

Bayum

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Interestingly, many of the comments have focused on the social aspect of journeys, rather than the physical nature of the carriage itself.
Seats being uncomfortable. Would you expect a doctor to continue giving you a drug that was surpassed in effectiveness and safety risk? It’s the same with seat design. Granted, there are more comfortable variants, but to say we’ve regressed because of that is a little nonsensical. We’ve progressed in knowledge and understanding of the best crash worthiness structures and seating. Perhaps the decisions made by the DFT have regressed, considering many of the 800s has their seat designs chosen by the department.
 
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