LNWR service from Liverpool to Birmingham and London.

TH172341 · 30 Oct 2019

Going to be another bad afternoon by the looks of it; power failure blocking lines at Northampton; ticket acceptance arranged with Chiltern Railways. CrossCountry and Northern have been very badly affected by this poor timetable and impacted their reliability greatly; XC services going via Coventry noticeably inevitably pick up delays along the WCML whilst the Newcastle services going via the Solihull route noticeably come through unscathed on the whole. Whilst I do not live on the New Street lines, noticed the staff shortages on the Snow Hill lines which used to be very settled under LM. Hopefully things improve in December and certainly when next May occurs.

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londonmidland · 30 Oct 2019

Initially there was a broken down VT service which meant services were diverted via Northampton but there has been a power failure at Northampton closing all lines.

LNWR have tweeted disruption expected until the end of the day. No doubt Birmingham New Street will, once again, become very congested, and will have a knock on effect, causing delays to other services.

gazzaa2 · 30 Oct 2019

The WCML in general seems to be at breaking point between Euston and the Midlands. It's good advertisement for HS2 if nothing else.

I don't know how they can even advertise a Lime Street-Euston service when it's a miracle if it runs from start to finish. It either doesn't start from Lime Street or Euston or doesn't finish there. And it's almost never running to time.

Bletchleyite · 30 Oct 2019

gazzaa2 said:
The WCML in general seems to be at breaking point between Euston and the Midlands.

It wasn't before the new timetable, it was quite reliable. It's purely LNR's management incompetence that is causing the problems. Go back to the previous timetable (or some other variant with services split and traincrew diagrams simpler) and it'll work fine.

Nick Leverton · 30 Oct 2019

Even having a workable emergency timetable to recover from problems would be a good start.

gazzaa2 · 30 Oct 2019

Bletchleyite said:
It wasn't before the new timetable, it was quite reliable. It's purely LNR's management incompetence that is causing the problems. Go back to the previous timetable (or some other variant with services split and traincrew diagrams simpler) and it'll work fine.

It can't go on as it is. The timetable changes have been a disaster and caused similar chaos as to Northern after last year's timetable change. But it's having a knock-on effect to other services too and swathes of the WCML.

nw1 · 30 Oct 2019

Ianno87 said:
Generally, everything (rolling stock wise) is on self-contained circuits most of the day. E.g. trains just ping back and forth between Cambridge and Brighton, with decent turnround times at both ends to recover late running. There are a few quirks in the peak (e.g. trains starting from Horsham go to Bedford in the morning peak, then Peterborough thereafter) but otherwise it's fairly 'set' and standardised.

I think train crew is intended to be fairly simple too, with limited mid-ro
ute crew changes and drivers working end to end as far as possible.

Not sure whether interworking alone is the source of LNWR's problems - more the fact that some of the services are extremely long time-wise and therefore subject to delays - and turnaround time is insufficient.

Interworking though is something which has taken place for many years (since at least the 80s) on the lines out of Waterloo for instance, without apparently causing big problems; interworking is (IMX) perfectly fine if it's used on a network of commuter lines none of which have a total journey time of more than 90 mins or so.

The problem with LNWR seems to be more that the turnaround time isn't sufficient for the length of journey hence no recovery time. The through Euston-Liverpool LNWR would probably be perfectly reliable if it had 40-50 mins or so of turnaround time at each end, as "InterCity" services do. Isn't there supposed to be a formula for turnaround time of something like 10 minutes for every hour of journey, and a minimum 10 min turnaround time at a London terminus?

If platform capacity at Euston prevents these longer turnaround times, then I'd agree they should split the through services.

The splitting and joining at Birmingham on the other hand doesn't sound like such a good idea with journeys of this length, as you end up getting one portion waiting for the other - or the non-delayed portion going forward without the other leading to short-forms and units in the wrong place.

sprinterguy · 30 Oct 2019

londonmidland said:
.
LNWR have tweeted disruption expected until the end of the day. No doubt Birmingham New Street will, once again, become very congested, and will have a knock on effect, causing delays to other services.

Unsurprisingly, departures are starting to get confused at New Street: I'm just relieved to have got out of the place on the 16:21 LNR service to Crewe, which departed at 16:39. At the same time, the 16:15 VT to Edinburgh was still sat in platform 7, after arriving at 16:30, and the 16:31 XC departure to Manchester had just arrived in platform 6A BEHIND the 16:39 WMR stopper to Wolverhampton, which was sat in 6B.

Despite hordes of passengers attempting to board the 16:15 VT and 16:31 XC departures, the 16:21 LNR to Crewe is virtually deserted and running as eight carriages forward from Birmingham so I think I made the right choice there. It's also running direct from Stafford to Crewe and missing out Stone, Stoke and Alsager for those keeping score of such things. I can't imagine Stone's train service will fare well in the face of today's disruption.

LowLevel · 30 Oct 2019

Carlisle said:
Sorry didn’t intend to be rude,
It sounds from what your saying many of the problems for a TOC like WMR/ LNWR are attributable to a combination of over complex timetables, capacity problems & train & station staffing regimes that haven’t fundamentally been changed in several decades to better reflect the modern railway, but have (probably wrongly) all been allowed to be tinkered with here and there simply to save a few quid

Whether we agree on the detail of the issues at hand, I think it's fair to say that the industry in general is feeling quite disillusioned at the moment. We don't get up and come to work to provide a bad service.

Djgr · 30 Oct 2019

LowLevel said:
Whether we agree on the detail of the issues at hand, I think it's fair to say that the industry in general is feeling quite disillusioned at the moment. We don't get up and come to work to provide a bad service.

But to be fair it's a lot worse for passengers who are PAYING to be delivered into this chaos.

Bletchleyite · 30 Oct 2019

LowLevel said:
Whether we agree on the detail of the issues at hand, I think it's fair to say that the industry in general is feeling quite disillusioned at the moment. We don't get up and come to work to provide a bad service.

Indeed not, and as front-line staff have to put up with irate passengers day in day out it's probably harder for them than it even is for passengers!

If the senior management that specified this are disillusioned, good, they deserve to be. It was never going to work.

Carlisle · 30 Oct 2019

LowLevel said:
. We don't get up and come to work to provide a bad service.

I completely agree .

Taunton · 30 Oct 2019

nickw1 said:
Interworking though is something which has taken place for many years (since at least the 80s) on the lines out of Waterloo for instance, without apparently causing big problems.

I believe you are right, but it was back in latter BR days that some fundamental changes were made to improve Waterloo reliability. Probably an NSE initiative. One was no joining/dividing except at quiet times there; this was to be done at the country end. Another was that crews stayed together all day, and on the same line for a day. Desire to keep up route knowledge was handled by assigning different routes on different days, not within the day. There had even previously been rosters where a crew member did a main line job first, then a couple of trips down on the Waterloo & City (still BR then), then another mainline job. That was ended. It was all down to different management personalities in charge.

Some of the current minimalist turnrounds after lengthy journeys are just silly. The Brighton to Worcester GWR diesels, a notably complex run of about 4 hours, were extended to Great Malvern purely as an Orcats Raid on the local traffic flow there, with only a short turnround at Malvern before heading back. Which of course gets turned short very regularly.

It's easy if you keep it simple.

Silverlinky · 30 Oct 2019

Djgr said:
But to be fair it's a lot worse for passengers who are PAYING to be delivered into this chaos.

Paying and then claiming their money back accordingly I would assume.......

Staff morale is taking a hit, the platform staff through to the ticket office staff, customer information point staff and traincrew, all getting it in the neck from irate passengers.....when 99.9% of the time there is nothing any of these staff members can do!

option · 30 Oct 2019

nickw1 said:
The splitting and joining at Birmingham on the other hand doesn't sound like such a good idea with journeys of this length, as you end up getting one portion waiting for the other - or the non-delayed portion going forward without the other leading to short-forms and units in the wrong place.

If you don't advertise it as a through service, then people wont use it as such.

An all-stations service, which is what this essentially is, shouldn't be doing such a long distance.
Split it in 2, Birmingham-Liverpool via Stoke etc, then offer it to WMR/EMR/Northern
Birmingham-Euston via Northampton, & the branches, should then get offered to another franchise

The LNWR franchise must be planned to disappear, as it can't stay part of WMR & be managed by them forever.

fowler9 · 30 Oct 2019

I feel bad for the staff. Just got the late running 16:43 Virgin train from Crewe to Lime Street. It was rammed with passengers off LNWR services. I am now catching the 18:19 Northern service back to West Allerton which on the boards now says "For connections to Euston". If it was a one off that would probably be acceptable. The peak service due in to Lime Street to form the 18:19 is of course late. Anyone aiming to catch the LNWR service at South Parkway will probably now miss it.

option · 30 Oct 2019

Silverlinky said:
Paying and then claiming their money back accordingly I would assume.......

Staff morale is taking a hit, the platform staff through to the ticket office staff, customer information point staff and traincrew, all getting it in the neck from irate passengers.....when 99.9% of the time there is nothing any of these staff members can do!

but it doesn't come back as quickly as it went out...
"You should receive your compensation payment within 14 days of our agreeing your claim"
though doesn't state how long the 'agreeing' process takes.
So they could easily have your money for 3 weeks.

Then there's this part, hidden under Postal Claims
"Remember, though, we’ll not normally accept a claim if you were told in advance of your journey that there would be a delay."
Even if it's your only choice for that journey/station, they could tell you there will be a delay, not even specifying how long for, & then increase said delay once underway, & they've got out of the delay repay.

fowler9 · 30 Oct 2019

option said:
but it doesn't come back as quickly as it went out...
"You should receive your compensation payment within 14 days of our agreeing your claim"
though doesn't state how long the 'agreeing' process takes.
So they could easily have your money for 3 weeks.

Then there's this part, hidden under Postal Claims
"Remember, though, we’ll not normally accept a claim if you were told in advance of your journey that there would be a delay."
Even if it's your only choice for that journey/station, they could tell you there will be a delay, not even specifying how long for, & then increase said delay once underway, & they've got out of the delay repay.

Then there is the fact that all of my travel has been messed up by LNWR today and I haven't even used them .

Baxenden Bank · 30 Oct 2019

sprinterguy said:
Unsurprisingly, departures are starting to get confused at New Street: I'm just relieved to have got out of the place on the 16:21 LNR service to Crewe, which departed at 16:39. At the same time, the 16:15 VT to Edinburgh was still sat in platform 7, after arriving at 16:30, and the 16:31 XC departure to Manchester had just arrived in platform 6A BEHIND the 16:39 WMR stopper to Wolverhampton, which was sat in 6B.

Despite hordes of passengers attempting to board the 16:15 VT and 16:31 XC departures, the 16:21 LNR to Crewe is virtually deserted and running as eight carriages forward from Birmingham so I think I made the right choice there. It's also running direct from Stafford to Crewe and missing out Stone, Stoke and Alsager for those keeping score of such things. I can't imagine Stone's train service will fare well in the face of today's disruption.

As it happens, services via the Stoke wobble much better than yesterday! Not that that is saying much - just a series of two and three hours gaps today rather than six hour gaps yesterday. No rail replacement provision, no station staff to arrange taxis (except Stoke and half-day at Kidsgrove), no realistic alternatives even if prepared to pay out of your own pocket.

Puffing Devil · 30 Oct 2019

I'm at Birmingham New Street now waiting for the Virgin to Crewe having come up from London in relative comfort in the Chiltern Service and thinking that Euston would be a Zoo.

The screens are saying that my London NW ticket its not valid on this train. We'll see as the NR disruption notice disagrees.

The London NW service at 2019 is cancelled.

Djgr · 30 Oct 2019

Silverlinky said:
Paying and then claiming their money back accordingly I would assume.......

Staff morale is taking a hit, the platform staff through to the ticket office staff, customer information point staff and traincrew, all getting it in the neck from irate passengers.....when 99.9% of the time there is nothing any of these staff members can do!

Except as you know the percentage claim rate amongst normal rail passengers is not high, not least because TOCs don't tend to advertise it well (unlike say it see it sort it)

156420 · 30 Oct 2019

Bletchleyite said:
If the senior management that specified this are disillusioned, good, they deserve to be. It was never going to work.

I doubt they care, they think the railway stops running after 1700 and doesn’t start again until 0900!

Grumpy Git · 30 Oct 2019

156420 said:
I doubt they care, they think the railway stops running after 1700 and doesn’t start again until 0900!

That would be much funnier if it wasn't true.

Bletchleyite · 30 Oct 2019

Djgr said:
Except as you know the percentage claim rate amongst normal rail passengers is not high, not least because TOCs don't tend to advertise it well (unlike say it see it sort it)

LNR guards, who I guess by now are no fans of the company, are always quick to get on the PA and point out that people can claim. I don't think I've been on a delayed LNR service recently (that'll be most of them) where the guard has not done this.

frodshamfella · 30 Oct 2019

22.35 Liverpool to Crewe cancelled tonight at short notice. Passengers told to get 22.23 to South Parkway and change. Not sure if a bus or a train awaits.

Grumpy Git · 30 Oct 2019

I'm due to travel EUS-Liverpool tomorrow evening and was planning to change from the VTWC to the LNW service at Crewe, (so I can alight at South Parkway instead of Lime St.).

Has something out of the ordinary happened today or is it just general ongoing chaos? I think I'll just stay on the VTWC to Lime St.?

Bletchleyite · 30 Oct 2019

There have been a couple of issues including a power failure at Northampton, however the LNR service is generally unreliable so TBH I'd go into Lime St and go back out on Merseyrail if needs be.

Grumpy Git · 30 Oct 2019

Bletchleyite said:
There have been a couple of issues including a power failure at Northampton, however the LNR service is generally unreliable so TBH I'd go into Lime St and go back out on Merseyrail if needs be.

I think I will. I was booked on a non-Liverpool VT service to Crewe, so I'll have to wait a bit longer at EUS for a direct service. Waiting at Crewe in the evening is enough to make you give-up the will to live.

Mugby · 30 Oct 2019

Carlisle said:
Sorry didn’t intend to be rude,
It sounds from what your saying many of the problems for a TOC like WMR/ LNWR are attributable to a combination of over complex timetables, capacity problems & train & station staffing regimes that haven’t fundamentally been changed in several decades to better reflect the modern railway, but have (probably wrongly) all been allowed to be tinkered with here and there simply to save a few quid

The spokesman for WMR, Francis Thomas, was on BBC Midlands News yesterday, following a lot of public outrage about the ongoing lamentable service.

He acknowledged most of the reasons you quote for the problems and said that lessons have been learned and all will be well after the December timetable change!

Grumpy Git · 30 Oct 2019

You can guarantee that as a private company (which handily nationalises any debt but pays dividends to shareholders), that staffing levels will be paired to the bone.

LNWR service from Liverpool to Birmingham and London.

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