Northern and short platforms

ryan125hst · 29 Oct 2019

My sister commutes from Retford to Sheffield for uni and at one point earlier this year, before the May timetable change, the 07:36 was often formed of a five coach Pacer (a three car and a two car coupled). This is too long for some of the intermediate stations on the route (I believe the Kiveton stations have the shortest platforms) and so a Pacer of that length wouldn’t be able to fit. We were talking about this earlier on and she thought that the guard announced over the PA to move forward down the train to get off at those stations. That got me thinking about the rules regarding short platforms and trains with power doors.

Surely the guard will need to open their local door to check that the train is platformed before they open the doors, but they would need to stand at the non-platformed door in order to prevent passengers from falling off the train. But how would they then check that the doors were closed before they close their local door and give the signal for the driver to proceed? I think I travelled on such a train myself once and I regret not getting myself in a position where I could observe how it was operated.

This wasn’t a one off and was done every day for a brief period (as long as the train wasn't short formed!). She also told me that for the Lincoln Christmas Market last year, they ran a Class 158+Pacer combination which must have run into the same issues (the shortest platform is only able to take three 23m coaches if I remember rightly).

Does anyone know how they did this?

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muz379 · 29 Oct 2019

Procedures might vary slightly between toc .

But the general principle is do not release any doors not accommodated by a platform . On stock with SDO you can select to release certain doors generally by using a switch to select a direction from the panel you are working from . With ASDO the system should know which doors are not released and only release those accommodated by platform

Pacers dont have either SDO or ASDO . So the procedure would generally be to open the local door at the front of the rear unit , get onto the platform and then use the external door controls to open the a local door at the rear of the front unit . This should be communicated to passengers via PA announcements at relevant points during the route .

If its sprinters on the front then you can use egress valves to open doors .

These instructions can be varied by local instruction . I know of instances when trains have to stop with the front unit not fully or even at all accommodated by a platform and in those instances there are specific local instructions relating to door operations at those locations .

Then there is also the fact that sometimes you see or hear people do things that are not as per company instructions , generally you hear about them when something goes wrong and someone gets into trouble carrying out a method of work not approved by the company .

scrapy · 29 Oct 2019

It would depend on the traction, the unit type and any local instructions. What would not be allowed is to physically lock an end passenger door or more than one door in the same vehicle as this would prevent them being used in an emergency on most of Northerns older stock. So as they dont have SDO the conductor would have to release doors individually. Usually it would be a case of just opening the front local door on the rear unit and the rear local door on the front unit. Other platformed doors can be opened as required using external door controls/butterfly switches.

NorthernAspect · 29 Oct 2019

scrapy said:
It would depend on the traction, the unit type and any local instructions. What would not be allowed is to physically lock an end passenger door or more than one door in the same vehicle as this would prevent them being used in an emergency on most of Northerns older stock. So as they dont have SDO the conductor would have to release doors individually. Usually it would be a case of just opening the front local door on the rear unit and the rear local door on the front unit. Other platformed doors can be opened as required using external door controls/butterfly switches.

This is known as the long train-short platform procedure, used on the Pacer and Sprinter fleet. There are specific local instructions for newer stock such as 170 & the CAF units (ASDO is a different kettle of fish entirely) where they are booked onto routes with short platforms. Where those units with SDO capability are used on routes where instructions relating to it's use does not exist, then special permission has to be sought to use it.

Sprinter153 · 30 Oct 2019

I noticed at Trafford Park recently on the Liverpool bound platform that on services operated by a 156 all doors are released although the rear door is off the platform. I presume the risk mitigation is that the doors are released from the rear and any passengers attempting to alight from that door can be stopped by the Conductor, but at my TOC they would have kittens at the very suggestion of a procedure like that!

alistairlees · 30 Oct 2019

At Snaith on the Leeds to Goole line the procedure was that the guard would open the rear door of a pacer (can’t remember if it was two or three car) and let passengers exit through that. No one ever got on (no doubt because there was no way back unless you only spent around half an hour in Goole!)

NorthernAspect · 30 Oct 2019

Sprinter153 said:
I noticed at Trafford Park recently on the Liverpool bound platform that on services operated by a 156 all doors are released although the rear door is off the platform. I presume the risk mitigation is that the doors are released from the rear and any passengers attempting to alight from that door can be stopped by the Conductor, but at my TOC they would have kittens at the very suggestion of a procedure like that!

So would a conductor manager if they witnessed it. That is not an accepted door procedure at all.

Bletchleyite · 30 Oct 2019

NorthernAspect said:
So would a conductor manager if they witnessed it. That is not an accepted door procedure at all.

Presumably local door only is what should be done in this situation?

NorthernAspect · 30 Oct 2019

Bletchleyite said:
Presumably local door only is what should be done in this situation?

Local door and any other accommodated doors as required (for example if a passenger requires the ramp).

It just isn't worth the risk taking short cuts to save a few delay minutes, if the conductor is leaning out of or even standing at an open door that isn't accommodated on the platform, they're increasing their own personal risk. If they lose their footing or grip it's a potentially nasty fall onto the ballast. Not only have you then hurt yourself, but you've also got some serious explaining to do when you return to work.

robbeech · 30 Oct 2019

NorthernAspect said:
So would a conductor manager if they witnessed it. That is not an accepted door procedure at all.

Happens frequently I’m sorry to say, not just historically on the line mentioned by the op.

NorthernAspect · 30 Oct 2019

robbeech said:
Happens frequently I’m sorry to say, not just historically on the line mentioned by the op.

I don't doubt it. On their head be it though, you never know who may be watching. When carrying out the door procedure myself, I've always done it as if my manager was watching me. If doing it properly incurs delays then it takes 30 seconds to fill in a please explain, pop it off to delay attributions and nothing more gets said about it.

Adam0984 · 31 Oct 2019

Northern long train short platform (unless a specific method of working has been written) with the legacy fleet is either lock out the rear unit with no passengers in if formed of more than 1 unit or local door opened then using butterflies open the other platformed doors (only applicable on 15Xs)

noddingdonkey · 31 Oct 2019

scrapy said:
It would depend on the traction, the unit type and any local instructions. What would not be allowed is to physically lock an end passenger door or more than one door in the same vehicle as this would prevent them being used in an emergency on most of Northerns older stock.

It surprises me that the physical locks would defeat the emergency egress handles otherwise that would provide a much simpler solution.

LowLevel · 31 Oct 2019

I do feel for the crews on the Cheshire Lines stoppers. They have a ridiculous mix of traction types and platform lengths to manage - 3 different vehicle lengths (142/150/156) and a mix of through corridor 150/2 and 156s and no corridor 142 and 150/1.

I would love to know how many days of my life I lost to delay on the EMT 0742 Liverpool Norwich before the Northern train in front was retimed earlier - I think at one stage it was delayed on 95% of days over a 6 week period purely because of Northern's dwell times and was being cancelled at Nottingham at every other day as a consequence.

Bletchleyite · 31 Oct 2019

LowLevel said:
I would love to know how many days of my life I lost to delay on the EMT 0742 Liverpool Norwich before the Northern train in front was retimed earlier - I think at one stage it was delayed on 95% of days over a 6 week period purely because of Northern's dwell times and was being cancelled at Nottingham at every other day as a consequence.

That train has always been a problem. I used to use it daily (as 0749) in the late 90s and it was almost never on time.

Adam0984 · 31 Oct 2019

noddingdonkey said:
It surprises me that the physical locks would defeat the emergency egress handles otherwise that would provide a much simpler solution.

It was much simpler time when Northerns train were built and the only way of isolating a door was to physical lock with a key eg the brass locks on a 14x. Or remove the air to revert it to fail safe closed and secure like the 15x and the technology of the time couldn’t reverse that with an emergency egress handle. Now the doors are electrically locked and with a flick of a switch can change the status and it becomes available in an out of course situation

ryan125hst · 31 Oct 2019

They must have used the local door on each set, although I thought passengers could open the doors using the button as normal. Of course, it's possible that correct procedures weren't being followed as mentioned above.

On a side note, how do they lock a unit out of use? Do they have to lock all doors manually or is there another way of preventing the doors unlocking when the guard releases them?

Adam0984 · 31 Oct 2019

it’s literally a case of locking each door out except 1 so you can get on and off to lock unlock the doors. Or release all the doors and keep an eye out to make sure nobody boards

jawr256 · 31 Oct 2019

The 16:37 Manchester Airport - Blackpool North service tonight was an 8-car 319 after joining to the unit from a cancelled service at the Airport. To my surprise, when I saw it arrive at Preston the doors on both sets were released, though there was nobody on the rear set. If the same happened at all (shorter) stations then I assume the guard was just verbally preventing people from boarding the rear set.

Edit: Or can 319s be manually locked as described above so that the door release sounds but they can't be opened?

randyrippley · 31 Oct 2019

how things change..........when Templecombe was reopened the class 33 +8/9 was too long for the platform (mk1 slam door stock) so passengers just walked through the train to a suitable door, never heard of anyone falling out

Bletchleyite · 31 Oct 2019

jawr256 said:
The 16:37 Manchester Airport - Blackpool North service tonight was an 8-car 319 after joining to the unit from a cancelled service at the Airport. To my surprise, when I saw it arrive at Preston the doors on both sets were released, though there was nobody on the rear set. If the same happened at all (shorter) stations then I assume the guard was just verbally preventing people from boarding the rear set.

Edit: Or can 319s be manually locked as described above so that the door release sounds but they can't be opened?

If I recall correctly, if you lock the doors out mechanically on a Class 319 or 321 the hazard lights still light up.

muz379 · 1 Nov 2019

jawr256 said:
The 16:37 Manchester Airport - Blackpool North service tonight was an 8-car 319 after joining to the unit from a cancelled service at the Airport. To my surprise, when I saw it arrive at Preston the doors on both sets were released, though there was nobody on the rear set. If the same happened at all (shorter) stations then I assume the guard was just verbally preventing people from boarding the rear set.

Edit: Or can 319s be manually locked as described above so that the door release sounds but they can't be opened?

319's do have a mechanical lock on each door which can be used . How do you know that the doors on both sets had been released ? door buttons and hazard lights still illuminate even when the door is mechanically locked .

Bletchleyite said:
If I recall correctly, if you lock the doors out mechanically on a Class 319 or 321 the hazard lights still light up.

Correct , and the passenger door controls will still light up if the doors are released they just wont or should not physically open , you will even be able to hear the change in air pressure in the opening mechanism its just the physical lock holding them together .

NorthernAspect · 1 Nov 2019

noddingdonkey said:
It surprises me that the physical locks would defeat the emergency egress handles otherwise that would provide a much simpler solution.

On 14X the locks are totally mechanical, all the egress does is release the waistlock and dump the air locally so that the door can be physically moved. The 'brass locks' will totally override that, and the only time they are to be used is when locking doors out due to a fault under the instruction of maintenance control, or if the entire unit is locked out and isolated to passengers. Under no circumstances should they be used during the long train-short platform procedure.

ryan125hst said:
They must have used the local door on each set, although I thought passengers could open the doors using the button as normal. Of course, it's possible that correct procedures weren't being followed as mentioned above.
On a side note, how do they lock a unit out of use? Do they have to lock all doors manually or is there another way of preventing the doors unlocking when the guard releases them?

The local doors can be 'isolated', on the external crew control panel the button to close doubles up as 'close/isolate', this will prevent it from being opened when the doors are fully released with the door key switch. There is a 'normal' button that reverts the door to normal service.

Bletchleyite said:
If I recall correctly, if you lock the doors out mechanically on a Class 319 or 321 the hazard lights still light up.

Hazard lights will illuminate whenever brake continuity is lost on BREL stock. A full door release is one of several things that cause this.

jawr256 · 1 Nov 2019

muz379 said:
319's do have a mechanical lock on each door which can be used . How do you know that the doors on both sets had been released ? door buttons and hazard lights still illuminate even when the door is mechanically locked .

Good point - I hadn't realised until subsequent posts that the buttons/lights would illuminate in that situation.

Northern and short platforms

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