Progression Or Regression ?

Greybeard33 · 30 Oct 2019

TRAX said:
But you were hotter in the summer, colder in the winter

I can recall passengers being entrusted with the heating on-off knob in the corner of the compartment, plus adjustable ventilation from the combination of sliding and droplight windows. Not to mention the bright-dim switch above the corridor door for the ceiling lights, with individually switched reading lights for each seat.

Nowadays you have to put up with whatever temperature and lighting level the nanny software decrees.

RailUK Forums

AM9 · 30 Oct 2019

Greybeard33 said:
I can recall passengers being entrusted with the heating on-off knob in the corner of the compartment, plus adjustable ventilation from the combination of sliding and droplight windows. Not to mention the bright-dim switch above the corridor door for the ceiling lights, with individually switched reading lights for each seat.

Nowadays you have to put up with whatever temperature and lighting level the nanny software decrees.

Whereas you had to put up with whatever setting the biggest bully/largest mouth wanted. Just look at some of the posts here about hopper windows and windows on buses. Taking away an individual's ability to impose his/her wishes over others can only be a good thing in our self-entitled society we now have.

delt1c · 30 Oct 2019

Seat design is an interesting point, yes we now have head restraints to avoid whiplash in the event of an accident. But whilst people are getting larger seats are getting slimmer, why? Could it be to get more passengers in the same space? Is this safety related or profit driven. A classic example is 1st gen DMU’s , airline seats roomy. 150’s airline seats you chew your knee caps.

ajrm · 30 Oct 2019

delt1c said:
Please expand, on Mk1 stock EVERY seating bay has its own window regardless if 1st or standard class same with Mk2 so what is lousy? are you saying that you want seating without a window?

The OP's point, I think, is that on corridor stock, ie with compartments and a side corridor, only two of the six (eight) occupants have a window seat.

ComUtoR · 30 Oct 2019

Surely regression/progression depends on where your standing or in my case; where I'm sitting. Driver aids are getting better and better and whilst that does mean that units are more and more complex, it is still a huge step from when I started. Odly, where there is a 'computer says no' issue; previously you would need to get down on the track or go back and start isolating things. Again, this is progression.

From a passenger perspective.... I kinda don't care. I get a train, sit down, and then get off when I arrive. They are cleaner and brighter but overall my journey is still basically the same. I don't remember paying attention to whether a train had a fire extinguisher or if the seat was harder or softer. Is having windows that can be opened or the more modern sealed progression or regression. I think there is a large element of that being subjective.

Bringback309s · 30 Oct 2019

This is all exactly what I have been thinking for some time. I don't think anyone wants us all back in grimey Mk1's but at least a decent train that can actually "go anywhere" would be a start, as I said recently in another thread about GA. I think also the generation gap comes through in discussion on this site - those old enough to remember plain blue slam door stock in daily use under British Rail know it really wasn't all bad - cleanliness was a big issue, but breakdowns weren't any more common, we suffered then like we do now with track, signals and overheads. In the past though we didn't see cancellations and short trains running whilst perfectly decent stock sat waiting in sidings for new owners, with a myriad of "technical" reasons why they can't be used. We also didn't see new trains have to wait years to come into service due to software issues - I hope there has been a real lesson learnt in the industry this year that computers simply are not reliable and timescales for stock introduction need serious reconsideration. Not only that, clogging up factories building new stock to replace trains that have hardly seen two years of use, whilst old toot has to keep going year on year demonstrates the whole failing of the system, it would not have happened under BR. I remember a 305 instead of a 307, a 304 driving trailer being slotted into a 302, hybrid DMUs all over the place, a rake of whatever was there behind a 31 instead of a 47, OK not ideal but it was a train, running, with people on it, and it could go anywhere, the driver somehow knew how to operate it, not cancelled because Windows 10 is installing a service pack and the other stock in the depot doesn't fit down the line its needed on. I remember 101s to Braintree when there was a power issue - can't see a 156 going there now! (Although that might all change with the 755's, etc, etc, etc...)

delt1c · 30 Oct 2019

ajrm said:
The OP's point, I think, is that on corridor stock, ie with compartments and a side corridor, only two of the six (eight) occupants have a window seat.

nos on some new suburban stock with longditudinal

Bringback309s said:
This is all exactly what I have been thinking for some time. I don't think anyone wants us all back in grimey Mk1's but at least a decent train that can actually "go anywhere" would be a start, as I said recently in another thread about GA. I think also the generation gap comes through in discussion on this site - those old enough to remember plain blue slam door stock in daily use under British Rail know it really wasn't all bad - cleanliness was a big issue, but breakdowns weren't any more common, we suffered then like we do now with track, signals and overheads. In the past though we didn't see cancellations and short trains running whilst perfectly decent stock sat waiting in sidings for new owners, with a myriad of "technical" reasons why they can't be used. We also didn't see new trains have to wait years to come into service due to software issues - I hope there has been a real lesson learnt in the industry this year that computers simply are not reliable and timescales for stock introduction need serious reconsideration. Not only that, clogging up factories building new stock to replace trains that have hardly seen two years of use, whilst old toot has to keep going year on year demonstrates the whole failing of the system, it would not have happened under BR. I remember a 305 instead of a 307, a 304 driving trailer being slotted into a 302, hybrid DMUs all over the place, a rake of whatever was there behind a 31 instead of a 47, OK not ideal but it was a train, running, with people on it, and it could go anywhere, the driver somehow knew how to operate it, not cancelled because Windows 10 is installing a service pack and the other stock in the depot doesn't fit down the line its needed on. I remember 101s to Braintree when there was a power issue - can't see a 156 going there now! (Although that might all change with the 755's, etc, etc, etc...)

I remember the 504 driving trailer operating in a 302 set out of Fenchurch St, the 8 VAB operating the Bournemouth line, now 1 coach has a problem and a whole unit is withdrawn. Yes this is progress

Bringback309s · 30 Oct 2019

We'll never see a 357 driving car on the end of a 360! I always loved seeing the hybrids, especially DMU's when you'd have a 101, 108 and 117 in one unit, and a 121 on the end for good measure. And then of course the mixture of liveries! But it kept services running and not bus replacements every five minutes.

xotGD · 30 Oct 2019

AM9 said:
That's your opinion, but not shared by everybody so not a 'fact'.

If we could only quote facts it wouldn't be much of a discussion forum.

Perhaps a poll of forum members to see who prefers Mark 1s and who prefers 800s would settle matters?

Master29 · 30 Oct 2019

delt1c said:
Please expand, on Mk1 stock EVERY seating bay has its own window regardless if 1st or standard class same with Mk2 so what is lousy? are you saying that you want seating without a window?

I personally preferred the open coach configuration which was less common on mk 1`s. Corridor mk 1`s were OK if you had a window seat. All personal preference really and entirely subjective to this thread.
I meant more window seats per open coach

TRAX · 30 Oct 2019

Greybeard33 said:
I can recall passengers being entrusted with the heating on-off knob in the corner of the compartment, plus adjustable ventilation from the combination of sliding and droplight windows. Not to mention the bright-dim switch above the corridor door for the ceiling lights, with individually switched reading lights for each seat.

Nowadays you have to put up with whatever temperature and lighting level the nanny software decrees.

It’s not the 21st century’s fault if your operator or country don’t specify at-seat lighting anymore. Both of mine do.

AM9 · 30 Oct 2019

Bringback309s said:
We'll never see a 357 driving car on the end of a 360! I always loved seeing the hybrids, especially DMU's when you'd have a 101, 108 and 117 in one unit, and a 121 on the end for good measure. And then of course the mixture of liveries! But it kept services running and not bus replacements every five minutes.

I don't remember seeing a 305 spliced into a 309 though. If there was a failure, then it was a 6 or 4-car train that ran instead of a 10-car. The fact is that the MKI EMUs were versatile within their class but they were sent out with shortfalls in performance that wouldn't be possible to accommodate on the modern railway, irrespective of whether the trains were as basic as they were then or as sophisticated as they are now. Safety standards have changed greatly.

Chris217 · 30 Oct 2019

Theres good and bad depending how you see it.
How about seats that have no window views like on Pendo's and Voyagers.
And when trains used to be 7 coaches long and now they are 4.
Or when it was called British Rail rather than 20 odd different private operators who have nothing to do with each other.
Back in the day I remember trains being held for connecting services if one of them were late.
There seems to be no guaranteed connections unless you have to sit on a platform for half hour between trains,and if your train is half hour late,it wont be held for you.
Comfort has gone downhill in my opinion.
Look at our lovely HST's when first introduced compared to what Great Western had done to them.
Back in the day we didnt have complicated ticketing like we have now.
Some things have vastly improved though including faster and more frequent journey's.And electrification of routes have also improved things.
Just seems that politics seem to dictate
and the common sense element has somewhat disappeared.
As much as we all used to like all our own favourite trains. And whether or not people consider if things have improved or not.
Train companies will only see things as progression whether we agree or not.

Spartacus · 31 Oct 2019

delt1c said:
Seat design is an interesting point, yes we now have head restraints to avoid whiplash in the event of an accident. But whilst people are getting larger seats are getting slimmer, why? Could it be to get more passengers in the same space? Is this safety related or profit driven. A classic example is 1st gen DMU’s , airline seats roomy. 150’s airline seats you chew your knee caps.

The ‘more passengers in the same space’ is really the key, when 1st Gen BR stock was produced rail use was in decline so there wasn’t any pressure to ‘pack em in’. With seat size though I think sometimes we’re far better off than we used to be, with no corridor stock expecting to squeeze in 4 abreast when it wasn’t really practical for 4 adults back when people were slimmer, then there were the off centre opens, which reflected the 2+1 of First but seemed to expect you to sit 3+2, or at least 2+2, when 2+1 was the only realistic option for adults in a public environment!

sjpowermac · 31 Oct 2019

TRAX said:
Comfortable if you think soft is good for your back health. Ask our ancestors how their backs felt in the long run.

In those days though why would you be sat down? Stood in the front vestibule with the droplight down would be the preference for most enthusiasts

sjpowermac · 31 Oct 2019

xotGD said:
If we could only quote facts it wouldn't be much of a discussion forum.

Perhaps a poll of forum members to see who prefers Mark 1s and who prefers 800s would settle matters?

A lovely toasty steam heat Mk1 v 800 plastic, now let me think

47271 · 31 Oct 2019

I think that we should be more concerned by what I see as deterioration if standards of comfort and ambience over the past 10-15 years of new build stock.

Harsh white lighting, rock hard seats, knocking bogies, rough ride - all seem to be features of the latest builds absent from, say, a Pendolino, Desiro or even a Turbostar.

Aside from its teething problems, the new sleeper stock is probably the worst example of this considering the job it's supposed to do.

delt1c · 31 Oct 2019

AM9 said:
I don't remember seeing a 305 spliced into a 309 though. If there was a failure, then it was a 6 or 4-car train that ran instead of a 10-car. The fact is that the MKI EMUs were versatile within their class but they were sent out with shortfalls in performance that wouldn't be possible to accommodate on the modern railway, irrespective of whether the trains were as basic as they were then or as sophisticated as they are now. Safety standards have changed greatly.

A 305 could operate with a 309 as could any 1st gen on ER except the 306's. Just that as far as i am aware 309's always operated together. 302, 305, and 308's (including sub classes) all worked together. Never saw a 307 work with anything else but their MU could allow it

Meerkat · 31 Oct 2019

slam door stock was terrible.
Falling over people’s feet getting in and out, stiff and filthy windows and door handles.
Bouncy seats that gave off clouds of dust when you sat down.
Total condensation so you couldn’t see where you where and got wet and cold if you leant against the window.
noisy, rattly, draughty, no PIS.

AM9 · 31 Oct 2019

Meerkat said:
slam door stock was terrible.
Falling over people’s feet getting in and out, stiff and filthy windows and door handles.
Bouncy seats that gave off clouds of dust when you sat down.
Total condensation so you couldn’t see where you where and got wet and cold if you leant against the window.
noisy, rattly, draughty, no PIS.

You won't get anywhere arguing those points with enthusiasts who see that as real railway travel.

That's why they had the anorak reputation, - it was necessary to wear clothes suitable for environment of grime presented to the public. Most of the grime in trains today is produced by passengers, feet on seats, coffee cups (complete with spilt coffee) and free newspapers etc.. Of course as was the fashion of the day, no consideration for any disabilities, either physical or mental.

AM9 · 31 Oct 2019

xotGD said:
If we could only quote facts it wouldn't be much of a discussion forum. ...

No problem with a discussion on views but your statement:
"Every train design since the Mark 1 has been a regression from the passenger perspective."
is written as an absolute fact which it clearly isn't as you don't speak for all passengers.

delt1c · 31 Oct 2019

AM9 said:
No problem with a discussion on views but your statement:
"Every train design since the Mark 1 has been a regression from the passenger perspective."
is written as an absolute fact which it clearly isn't as you don't speak for all passengers.

The ultimate design from passenger and operating view has to be the Mk2F. Everyone had a window view regardless of which class, reliable and relatively easy to maintain. The Mk3 was a adaption from the 2F however its one negative (in my opinion) was the single body shell for all. Yes I understand it was to save on construction costs , but it meant that in standard not everyone had an unhindered view.

aleandrail · 31 Oct 2019

Meerkat said:
slam door stock was terrible.
Falling over people’s feet getting in and out, stiff and filthy windows and door handles.
Bouncy seats that gave off clouds of dust when you sat down.
Total condensation so you couldn’t see where you where and got wet and cold if you leant against the window.
noisy, rattly, draughty, no PIS.

I can remember, as a young boy, riding on a 304 Emu from Stockport to Crewe visiting relatives on a regular basis. You used to get Bounced all over the place.

Bringback309s · 31 Oct 2019

delt1c said:
A 305 could operate with a 309 as could any 1st gen on ER except the 306's. Just that as far as i am aware 309's always operated together. 302, 305, and 308's (including sub classes) all worked together. Never saw a 307 work with anything else but their MU could allow it

I remember during disruption a 309 and 302/308 combo running I think as far as Colchester on a Clacton run. 312/310's also went to Southend Vic very rarely (there is a photo online of one at Hockley) and didn't have "gauging" or "power" issues, or incompatible signalling equipment or a completely foreign driving experience. Talking of rattles, clouds of dust, condensation - yes, cleanliness was worse and trains definitely "smell" better now. But a lot of that was what it was in its day - cars used to be full of condensation too because aircon wasn't widely used. As for rattles, sitting in an 800 outside Plymouth with every window blind reverberating from the underfloor engines doesn't bode well for the longevity of such new stock, give me some bogie knock of a 307 compartment carriage thundering over un-welded track between Billericay and Wickford any day!

Bringback309s · 31 Oct 2019

aleandrail said:
I can remember, as a young boy, riding on a 304 Emu from Stockport to Crewe visiting relatives on a regular basis. You used to get Bounced all over the place.

305's on the Hertford Easts used to go round the bends at Bethnal Green so fast the carriages would sway violently and I smacked my head hard against a window once. Never did me any harm!

AM9 · 31 Oct 2019

Bringback309s said:
305's on the Hertford Easts used to go round the bends at Bethnal Green so fast the carriages would sway violently and I smacked my head hard against a window once. Never did me any harm!

Not as you'd notice anyway.

AM9 · 31 Oct 2019

Bringback309s said:
I remember during disruption a 309 and 302/308 combo running I think as far as Colchester on a Clacton run. 312/310's also went to Southend Vic very rarely (there is a photo online of one at Hockley) and didn't have "gauging" or "power" issues, or incompatible signalling equipment or a completely foreign driving experience. Talking of rattles, clouds of dust, condensation - yes, cleanliness was worse and trains definitely "smell" better now. But a lot of that was what it was in its day - cars used to be full of condensation too because aircon wasn't widely used. As for rattles, sitting in an 800 outside Plymouth with every window blind reverberating from the underfloor engines doesn't bode well for the longevity of such new stock, give me some bogie knock of a 307 compartment carriage thundering over un-welded track between Billericay and Wickford any day!

I hadn't seen or heard of that. However the Clacton branch was a sort of a test bed so I suppose anyting went that could. A 309+ 302/305/307/308 combo would give timing problems on the main line, especially if the driver was in the 309 cab and forgot about the encumbrance at the rear as speed rose to 100.

xotGD · 31 Oct 2019

AM9 said:
You won't get anywhere arguing those points with enthusiasts who see that as real railway travel.
That's why they had the anorak reputation, - it was necessary to wear clothes suitable for environment of grime presented to the public. Most of the grime in trains today is produced by passengers, feet on seats, coffee cups (complete with spilt coffee) and free newspapers etc.. Of course as was the fashion of the day, no consideration for any disabilities, either physical or mental.

You've written the above as if it were an established fact, rather than just your opinion.

Bringback309s · 31 Oct 2019

AM9 said:
I hadn't seen or heard of that. However the Clacton branch was a sort of a test bed so I suppose anyting went that could. A 309+ 302/305/307/308 combo would give timing problems on the main line, especially if the driver was in the 309 cab and forgot about the encumbrance at the rear as speed rose to 100.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/robertcwp/4448606926/ I'm sure what I recall was a jaffa cake 309 and an unrefurbished 302 - but as I say it was during disruption, snow from memory.

AM9 · 31 Oct 2019

Bringback309s said:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/robertcwp/4448606926/ I'm sure what I recall was a jaffa cake 309 and an unrefurbished 302 - but as I say it was during disruption, snow from memory.

Wow, an extended 309/1 and an outer suburban on the inner GEML. Thanks for that.
Of their day, they were the best EMUs around. That looks like the '80s.

Progression Or Regression ?

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