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Blaenau Ffestiniog partial tunnel collapse (24/10)

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Bletchleyite

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Off-hand, all I could think of is a block station at Betws that spends most of its time switched out

Could they change it to train staff and ticket rather than token, with two train staffs, one as far as Betws and one beyond, which would normally both be held by the traincrew south of Llanrwst but in the event of a closure the other one would be kept at the box?

Might be easier finding a pilotman, I guess.
 
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Bletchleyite

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Seems like there's going to be a long closure coming up over the winter to do some more flood resilience work and to reinforce the tunnel:

We are writing to let you know that we will soon be carrying out further essential resilience work on the Conwy Valley railway line. To carry out this work safely and effectively the line, which runs between Llandudno and Blaenau Ffestiniog, will be closed from 21:30 on Friday 22 November until 10.30 on Sunday 15 December. We would also like to invite you to attend our drop-in events we will be hosting to update you about this work.

As you may know, we experienced severe flooding in the spring which caused significant damage. The railway line was closed so we could carry out extensive repairs to six miles of track, ten level crossings, nine culverts and Dolgarrog station, before reopening in the summer ahead of the Eisteddfod.

Surveys have revealed additional resilience work is required to further reduce the risk of future closures of this vital railway line. During this temporary closure our engineers will work day and night to install over 600 rock bolts in the Ffestiniog Tunnel, replace sleepers along the line and complete essential vegetation management.

We are also continuing to carry out work to replace the flood damaged platform at Dolgarrog station, which will remain closed until this essential platform work is completed. The work at the station will include piling, which involves driving steel piles into the ground using road/rail vehicles with attached hammers. Piling is a noisy activity and we will make every effort to minimise unnecessary noise and complete each pile as quickly as possible. We would like to thank you in advance for your patience during this essential work.

Want to know more?

We would like to invite you to our drop-in events on:

Tuesday 5 November at Glasdir Conference and Meeting Hall, Llanrwst, LL26 0DF from 15:00 until 18:30.

Wednesday 6 November at Ffestiniog Town Council, 5 High Street, Blaenau Ffestiniog, LL41 3ES, from 15:00 until 18:00.
Members of the project team will be on hand to answer any questions you have, and no appointment is necessary.

Network Rail Infrastructure Limited
 

krus_aragon

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Seems like there's going to be a long closure coming up over the winter to do some more flood resilience work and to reinforce the tunnel:

"We would like to invite you to our drop-in events on:

Tuesday 5 November at Glasdir Conference and Meeting Hall, Llanrwst, LL26 0DF from 15:00 until 18:30"

I'll try to remember to call by and see what's afoot. I'd been meaning to pop down and take a look at what's been happening at Dolgarrog anyway.
 
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a_c_skinner

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Can I ask, a genuine question, why reversal at Betwys on a single line cannot be dealt with by clear instruction to a driver and stop boards?
 

Llandudno

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Seems like there's going to be a long closure coming up over the winter to do some more flood resilience work and to reinforce the tunnel:
Hopefully the saved unit will be used to reinforce North Wales - Manchester diagrams
 

krus_aragon

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Can I ask, a genuine question, why reversal at Betwys on a single line cannot be dealt with by clear instruction to a driver and stop boards?
Two possible issue come to mind:

If the stop board is a permanent fixture (stop and ask for authority to proceed) then there needs to be some infrastructure for the signaller to allow the driver to continue to Blaenau under normal conditions. If it's a temporary sign that gets put up only when there's an issue down-line, that needs someone from NR to come and put it there at short notice. (For a planned, long-term closure it would certainly make sense to arrange something, but that could just as easily involve fitting a stop block to the track or similar.)

If there will be workmen further down the line, they'll need to isolate that portion of the line and take posession; a temporary stop board may not be sufficient on its own. Removing a token from the signal box at North Llanrwst / Blaenau and keeping posession of it is probably the easiest way to make sure there will be no trains strying into the work area.
 

Baxenden Bank

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Amazed that it is necessary to retain a signalperson at Llanrwst to watch the same train go to and fro all day, exchanging the tokens each time. Other than the very occasional excursion train, how many years is it since trains were scheduled to cross at Llanrwst North? Heart of Wales operates with on-platform cabinets, even Blaenau Ffestiniog has an on platform cabinet.
 

Bletchleyite

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Amazed that it is necessary to retain a signalperson at Llanrwst to watch the same train go to and fro all day, exchanging the tokens each time. Other than the very occasional excursion train, how many years is it since trains were scheduled to cross at Llanrwst North? Heart of Wales operates with on-platform cabinets, even Blaenau Ffestiniog has an on platform cabinet.

I understand the loop can't be used for passing any more as some kind of certification on the interlocking has expired. So yes, it's pointless. Train staff (or train staff and ticket for the odd charter which would be "locked in" at the Blaenau end while the service train does its run) would be fine. The staff could perhaps be split in two to allow a split at Betws, with the whole thing normally being issued.
 

edwin_m

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Amazed that it is necessary to retain a signalperson at Llanrwst to watch the same train go to and fro all day, exchanging the tokens each time. Other than the very occasional excursion train, how many years is it since trains were scheduled to cross at Llanrwst North? Heart of Wales operates with on-platform cabinets, even Blaenau Ffestiniog has an on platform cabinet.

I understand the loop can't be used for passing any more as some kind of certification on the interlocking has expired. So yes, it's pointless. Train staff (or train staff and ticket for the odd charter which would be "locked in" at the Blaenau end while the service train does its run) would be fine. The staff could perhaps be split in two to allow a split at Betws, with the whole thing normally being issued.
The lock-in would have been needed for the trains going on to Trawsfynydd, and may still be needed to stable an extra train on the run-round while the service train uses the platform. If this facility still exists and the driver has to use it on every journey to register that the train is on its way back, then reversing part way along the single line might not be allowed because the driver wouldn't be able to do this. I don't think staff and ticket can be used unless there is a signaller at both ends of the section (otherwise who would write the ticket?).
 

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The lock-in would have been needed for the trains going on to Trawsfynydd, and may still be needed to stable an extra train on the run-round while the service train uses the platform. If this facility still exists and the driver has to use it on every journey to register that the train is on its way back, then reversing part way along the single line might not be allowed because the driver wouldn't be able to do this. I don't think staff and ticket can be used unless there is a signaller at both ends of the section (otherwise who would write the ticket?).
From the London North West (North) Sectional Appendix (find at https://www.networkrail.co.uk/indus...ators/national-electronic-sectional-appendix/) :
NW3015 - LLANDUDNO JN. TO BLAENAU FFESTINIOG
LLANRWST To BLAENAU FFESTINIOG

The driver of a train which does not require to be shunted clear of the single line at Blaenau Ffestiniog is authorised to return to Llanrwst signal box without the token being passed through a token instrument. To do this the authority of the signaller at Llanrwst signal box must be obtained. However, if telephone communication is not available in these circumstances then trains are authorised to return from Blaenau Ffestiniog but the driver must approach the home signal for Llanrwst signal box cautiously.

If a down DMU train becomes defective in the section between Llanrwst and Blaenau Ffestiniog the driver is authorised to return to Llanrwst provided the train is driven from the leading end and approaches the home signal for Llanrwst signal box cautiously. Where possible the signaller at Llanrwst signal box must be advised by telephone from Pont-y-Pant or Betwsy-Coed.

Blockage of the line. If a blockage of the line occurs due to flooding between Llanrwst and Blaenau Ffestiniog, provided there is no train or on-track machine occupying the line between these points, the following special arrangements may be introduced to allow a train service to be maintained as far as Llanrwst station.

1. A possession of the line must be taken from a point 50 yards on the Blaenau Ffestiniog side of Llanrwst station to Blaenau Ffestiniog. The protection at Llanrwst must be clearly visible to the driver of a down train arriving in the station.

2. The PICOP, PC or COSS, must sign the relevant entry in the Train Register in Llanrwst signal box but must not take possession of the token.

3. A label worded “TO LLANRWST STATION ONLY” must be attached to the token while the above special arrangements are in force. Drivers must work to the instructions given by the signaller at Llanrwst signal box.

Dated: 07/10/06
 

Belperpete

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I understand the loop can't be used for passing any more as some kind of certification on the interlocking has expired. So yes, it's pointless.
It helps to have the section split into two, e.g. it allows engineering work to take place in the Llanrwst-Blaenau section while the train is Llanrwst-Llandudno Jcn, and v.v. Also a special/engineering train/etc. can travel to Llanrwst while the service train is doing the Jcn - Llandudno shuffle, the service train can then follow down to Llanrwst while the special is heading to Blaenau, and then the service train can follow to Blaenau once the special has shut itself in the loop there. And similarly for coming back.

I suspect that the main reason that the signalbox is still there is that it would need some significant investment to get rid of it, and still retain the loop. For a Central Wales type loop, the loop stop boards would need to be moved back overlap clear of the points. This would be no problem for the up loop, but for the down loop this would mean the platform would also need moving back.

I think there is still a gate keeper at TalyCafn for much the same reason - justifying the investment to automate the crossing.

As discussed on other threads, the Blaenau branch is in limbo, a kind of zombie line. It doesn't justify any investment to improve it, but no-one is brave enough to propose closing it. So it staggers on, sucking in vast sums of money to maintain a service that is next-to-useless to both locals and tourists.
 

Belperpete

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From the London North West (North) Sectional Appendix (find at https://www.networkrail.co.uk/indus...ators/national-electronic-sectional-appendix/) :
Thanks for that. Although this instruction was clearly written with flooding in mind, surely it could be made a little-more general purpose, so that it could be invoked for any blockage of the line (not just flooding), and allow the train service to be maintained to Llanrwst or Betws as appropriate. As others have already pointed out, Betws is the main source of traffic on the line.
 

Bletchleyite

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MarkyT

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Thanks for that. Although this instruction was clearly written with flooding in mind, surely it could be made a little-more general purpose, so that it could be invoked for any blockage of the line (not just flooding), and allow the train service to be maintained to Llanrwst or Betws as appropriate. As others have already pointed out, Betws is the main source of traffic on the line.
Hmmm. Perhaps they could invest in an extra label to attach to the token “TO BETWS-Y-COED STATION ONLY” with the local instruction amended to suit. Perhaps that idea should be in Speculative Ideas!
 

krus_aragon

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If not for the fact that the Conwy Valley Railway Museum has taken over the trackbed of the second track and platform, Betws would be a more convenient place to have the only passing loop rather than Llanrwst North, as it's far closer to the half-way point between Llandudno Jn and Blaenau. Ah well...
 

edwin_m

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Hmmm. Perhaps they could invest in an extra label to attach to the token “TO BETWS-Y-COED STATION ONLY” with the local instruction amended to suit. Perhaps that idea should be in Speculative Ideas!
That seems to make sense. The only extra hazard I can think of that would result from the longer section would be the driver being more likely to forget they are not permitted through to Blaenau, during the longer time period of travelling to Betws compared with Llanwrst. That could be mitigated by something like a sleeper with a reflective strip chained to the tracks to reinforce the possession stop board.
 

a_c_skinner

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Several ideas that entrusted to a trained driver would seem to be sufficient.
 

Dai Corner

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Network Rail have announced the following

https://www.networkrail.co.uk/news/conwy-valley-line-upgrade-works/

Network Rail is reminding members public about upcoming work on the Conwy Valley Line to help futureproof the line and make it more reliable for passengers.

To deliver this upgrade safely, the line between Llandudno Junction and Blaenau Ffestiniog, will be closed from 21:30 on Friday 22 November until 10:30 on Sunday 15 December.

Network Rail has worked in partnership with Transport for Wales to keep passengers moving during the closure and a bus replacement service will be in operation.

This work is the second phase of a major upgrade delivered this year and includes the installation of 600 rock bolts in the Ffestiniog Tunnel, the replacement of sleepers along the line and vegetation management. Work will also continue to replace the flood damaged platform at Dolgarrog station, which remains closed.

The line was initially closed in March, following extreme weather that washed out ballast and damaged infrastructure over a six-mile stretch. Work during this phase included the removal of 8,000 tonnes of wash out materials, the installation of additional culverts and over 7,500 tonnes of ‘rock armour’ to improve flood resilience. The line was reopened in time for the National Eisteddfod in August.

Bill Kelly, Network Rail’s route director for Wales and Borders, said:
“I would like to thank residents in advance for their understanding and patience as we continue our work to make the Conwy Valley Line more reliable for passengers.

We know this is a hugely important rail link for tourism and the local economy and this work will help future proof the line: reducing unplanned closures and disruption.”

Cllr Philip C Evans, Chair Conwy Valley Railway Partnership, added:
“The pre-planned closures are essential for the continued maintenance and resilience of the line, we thank Network Rail for their continued investment and commitment to keeping passengers moving.

“This is really good news which will be greatly welcomed by the partnership for the long-term investment for passengers using the line.”

James Price, chief executive of Transport for Wales, concluded:
“The upcoming work being undertaken by our partners Network Rail demonstrates the rail industry’s continuing commitment to the future of the Conwy Valley Line. I’d like to thank them for their ongoing hard work in developing new solutions to the challenges we face along the line.

“We’re continuing to work in collaboration with Network Rail to deliver the best possible service for our customers. This will include bus replacement services. While we appreciate there will be some short-term disruption, this work will ensure a more resilient service on the route for years to come.”
 

Bletchleyite

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The "installation of 600 rock bolts in the Ffestiniog Tunnel" would be an upgrade, as presumably the bolts weren't there previously.

What is being done is mostly resilience upgrades to reduce the number of future interruptions of service - the rock bolts will reduce the chance of tunnel rockfalls, while I believe some more flooding resilience work is being done as well.

It's good to see the railway spending money purely to make the service more reliable - I can think of a number of other places which should be a priority for this.
 

61653 HTAFC

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What is being done is mostly resilience upgrades to reduce the number of future interruptions of service - the rock bolts will reduce the chance of tunnel rockfalls, while I believe some more flooding resilience work is being done as well.

It's good to see the railway spending money purely to make the service more reliable - I can think of a number of other places which should be a priority for this.
True. Tbh my point was that unless the bolts were already in place and were just being replaced with new, then that by definition is an improvement. The post I quoted didn't seem to acknowledge that.
 

Baxenden Bank

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True. Tbh my point was that unless the bolts were already in place and were just being replaced with new, then that by definition is an improvement. The post I quoted didn't seem to acknowledge that.
A tunnel exists, it is required to be maintained, Network Rail is funded to maintain it on a 'steady state' basis.

Any group of accountants will give themselves a good long discussion whether additional rock bolts are an enhancement or maintenance but just done in a different way!

Is replacing old track with new track maintenance, enhancement or investment?

Network Rail press releases are stuffed full of enhancement and investment but they rarely do boring old maintenance.
 

61653 HTAFC

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A tunnel exists, it is required to be maintained, Network Rail is funded to maintain it on a 'steady state' basis.

Any group of accountants will give themselves a good long discussion whether additional rock bolts are an enhancement or maintenance but just done in a different way!

Is replacing old track with new track maintenance, enhancement or investment?

Network Rail press releases are stuffed full of enhancement and investment but they rarely do boring old maintenance.
Replacing like with like would be routine maintenance. Replacing with something better/faster/more resilient would be an upgrade. Surprised that needs pointing out tbh...
 

Baxenden Bank

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Replacing like with like would be routine maintenance. Replacing with something better/faster/more resilient would be an upgrade. Surprised that needs pointing out tbh...
It doesn't need pointing out.

Network Rail previously stated (in relation to this line and its regular flooding issues) that they do not have funding for enhancements, or pre-emptive works, only repairs. A separate pot of money would need to be identified for such.

So which is it, repairs out of the current pot or enhancements out of a newly found pot?
 

mmh

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Unusually, Arriva are running the replacement bus service not Llew Jones this time. The ones I've seen at Llandudno Junction (in both directions) have looked quite well loaded.
 

pdeaves

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Does anyone know if Dolgarrog reopened with the line on 15 December? RTT suggests so (albeit with 'N/R' entries) but NRE still says:
Dolgarrog station is closed until further notice due to flooding.
You can use your ticket on Llew Jones Buses on routes 91 and X91.
Thanks.
 
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