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"A Flyover at Woking could be reality in the next 5 years"

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swt_passenger

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I know that Crossrail 2 doesn't reach Woking, however I didn't say that it would be getting Crossrail 2 services. The extra services would be possible through removing the metro services from Waterloo to Crossrail, with (IIRC) 9 paths an hour being possible.
I’ve amended my post to remove most of the quote. I was attempting to agree with the one specific point left. I’m aware of the alterations to the balance of fast to slow trains post Crossrail 2 which has been well discussed in past threads, especially those trains that presently cross slow to fast around Surbiton, which would remain on the slows into Waterloo. But this is drifting away from the Woking flyover.
 
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Lucan

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it is beyond me why a structure similar to this, not for high speed, should :-
take about five years ... "This is a £200 to £300 million piece of engineering. It takes a long time to plan and get it right ...."

Consider that they would have to work out the optimal design not only for the flyover but for the surrounding track layout .... Then they to get the design past the local authorities. ... plan out the entire building process upfront, ... what is going to happen on a given week, .... And only after they've done all that, can they start to actually build the thing ... Allowing for all that, 5 years doesn't seem too unreasonable to me.

Not impressed, sorry. Having been a senior engineer (specialist subject - structures) involved in building ships, trains and a nuclear power station, I think that 5 years and £200-300 million for a small bridge, a bit of track, some station re-building and some re-signalling, is ridiculous. Someone is being taken for a ride.
 

Lurpi

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I think he's expecting it to be paid for as a CP6 enhancement, funded like any other. I don't see anything in the article to suggest otherwise. Nor would it be fair to expect the council to pay for it, since it will beneit the whole route. Nor would the council have that sort of money.

Enhancements in CP6 will be approved individually, rather than announced as a programme at the beginning of the CP as happened previously. Each one will not be formally announced until it is at a later stage in the pipeline.

I understand that Network Rail is planning to put the Woking flyover scheme forward as a candidate for being financed by the private sector. It might be done along the lines of the western rail link to Heathrow, which the DfT is planning to procure as a public-private partnership - financed, built and maintained by the private sector but repaid from public funds over a long-term contract.
 

HSTEd

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I understand that Network Rail is planning to put the Woking flyover scheme forward as a candidate for being financed by the private sector. It might be done along the lines of the western rail link to Heathrow, which the DfT is planning to procure as a public-private partnership - financed, built and maintained by the private sector but repaid from public funds over a long-term contract.

In other words a PFI.
Which will result in yet more squandering of public money unnecessarily so the chancellor can claim public borrowing is falling.
 

Taunton

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Not impressed, sorry. Having been a senior engineer (specialist subject - structures) involved in building ships, trains and a nuclear power station, I think that 5 years and £200-300 million for a small bridge, a bit of track, some station re-building and some re-signalling, is ridiculous. Someone is being taken for a ride.
Agree. I doubt the LSWR 100 years ago paid the (then equivalent) of this sort of price, or duration, for all the other grade-separated junctions they built along this line, at a time when suburban rail fares were pennies.
 

coppercapped

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Not impressed, sorry. Having been a senior engineer (specialist subject - structures) involved in building ships, trains and a nuclear power station, I think that 5 years and £200-300 million for a small bridge, a bit of track, some station re-building and some re-signalling, is ridiculous. Someone is being taken for a ride.
I agree. The total cost of the rebuild at Reading was some £850 million. For that money the station received a flyover long enough to pass the Main lines over both sides of the triangle forming the connections to the Berks and Hants towards Reading West, a grade separated connection (the Festival Line) to enable XC trains to reverse without crossing the Mains on the flat, five new through platforms, a new station building, a relocated train maintenance depot and a reinstated diveunder to the east of the station and various other alterations.

Comparing it with the estimate for Woking - cheap at the price.
 

HSTEd

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At these price ranges, why don't we just build an SWML Shinkansen and be done with it?
 

coppercapped

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Thanks for that hint, I just got a copy of the 1979 edition of G. T. Moody’s above book. Only a fiver from Amazon...
Excellent! It's a good book - full of facts! I hadn't realised that there had been a second edition - mine still has (just) its original dust cover!
 

kevin_roche

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Things are progressing slowly on this project. In the Wessex Route Strategic Plan Version 4.30 published in March 2019 it says:
Wider enhancement work, which has yet to be funded, but we expect to develop in CP6, includes: grade separation at Woking Junction and a new platform at Woking station, which would provide more space on our network...
When the DfT announced its funding of Network Rail in CP6, enhancements, other than those already underway, were not included. In future, Network Rail will have to ‘bid’ for those and the DfT and Treasury will decide which ones to fund. Earlier this month the DfT published a list of rail enhancement projects in its updated Rail Network Enhancements Pipeline (RNEP).

In the section on Projects which have progressed through the first development stage and will either be working towards or have already completed a Strategic Outline Business Case. It has (on Page 11).
Woking Capacity Enhancement, Facilitate an increase in the Main Line capacity, enabling up to eleven trains per hour at Woking at high peak time.

The next stage decision will be a decision to move to a design stage (or not) but there is no mention of when that might happen.
 
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hluraven

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How will a flyover at Woking allow two more slots at Waterloo? The throat/platforming at Waterloo won't change, nor will capacity through Wimbeldon etc The article fails to mention that at all.

Which is exactly what the original SWML RUS said when it said it wasn't an option for more capacity to London.
 

kevin_roche

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How will a flyover at Woking allow two more slots at Waterloo? The throat/platforming at Waterloo won't change, nor will capacity through Wimbeldon etc The article fails to mention that at all.

Which is exactly what the original SWML RUS said when it said it wasn't an option for more capacity to London.

I have no idea, but do you think they are expecting the planned digital signalling upgrade to ETCS in CP6/7 to solve that?
 

DynamicSpirit

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How will a flyover at Woking allow two more slots at Waterloo? The throat/platforming at Waterloo won't change, nor will capacity through Wimbeldon etc The article fails to mention that at all.

I think the aim is that it will work in conjunction with Crossrail2 - which will provide more slots at Waterloo. Indeed, without the flyover at Woking, it'll be impossible to take full advantage of Crossrail2 by filling the extra Waterloo slots that CR2 will release.

In the meantime, I imagine a flyover would still prove very useful in terms of reducing conflicting moves and therefore delays at Woking - and of course allowing more freedom in timetable-planning trains around there.

One other thing... I don't know how feasible this is, or whether it's been considered. But I wonder if, in the absence of CR2, a flyover at Woking could perhaps provide the capacity for the Waterloo-Addlestone-Weybridge trains to run to Woking instead of Weybridge? Woking would seem a rather more useful destination for those trains.
 
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The Ham

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The paths could be used by Southern Approach to Heathrow services, which wouldn't need to go into Waterloo.
 

The Ham

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The year 2197? ;):D

Before or after the British Prime Minister has asked for an extension to Brexit? No one is quite sure of the origins of this tradition, but it attracts a lot of tourists to view the event.
 

Bald Rick

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There are two spare fast line paths into Waterloo, on paper at least, as it’s 2 minute headways, and there’s sufficient platforms at Waterloo (post remodelling) to run the throat in parallel with a gap every 14/16 minutes for a conflicting move.

But the paths can’t get there. Woking is the first constraint; solve that and the two spare paths can be made use of. Also any Heathrow Southern scheme seeking trains to Basingstoke or Guildford reds the flyover.
 

kevin_roche

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The paths could be used by Southern Approach to Heathrow services, which wouldn't need to go into Waterloo.
I was going to suggest Heathrow Southern Railway but that has gone very quiet recently despite the need for a way to get to Heathrow from the south.
 

61653 HTAFC

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One other thing... I don't know how feasible this is, or whether it's been considered. But I wonder if, in the absence of CR2, a flyover at Woking could perhaps provide the capacity for the Waterloo-Addlestone-Weybridge trains to run to Woking instead of Weybridge? Woking would seem a rather more useful destination for those trains.
Isn't the north to west curve at Addlestone already grade separated? In any case I'm not sure how a flyover West of Woking would provide extra capacity for services to terminate there from the London direction... but maybe I'm being a bit thick!

I agree that Woking would seem a more logical destination than Weybridge on paper at least. Presumably it's a lack of capacity to turn services back at Woking (with the direct Waterloo services using the central bay) that prevents such an operation.
 

swt_passenger

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Isn't the north to west curve at Addlestone already grade separated? In any case I'm not sure how a flyover West of Woking would provide extra capacity for services to terminate there from the London direction... but maybe I'm being a bit thick!

I agree that Woking would seem a more logical destination than Weybridge on paper at least. Presumably it's a lack of capacity to turn services back at Woking (with the direct Waterloo services using the central bay) that prevents such an operation.
The “flyover work”, as described in the route study, also includes a terminating siding alongside or possibly between the Portsmouth lines, so trains could run through from P5 or new through P6 before returning over the flyover into P1 or P2.

Bottom left corner of the network rail drawing in an earlier thread: https://www.railforums.co.uk/attachments/woking1-jpg.31451/
 
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Bigfoot

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Victoria Arch Bridge (Country side of Woking) is due for replacement/widening in the next few years alongside road remodelling, it will be interesting to see what occurs along side those works.
 

GW43125

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How will a flyover at Woking allow two more slots at Waterloo? The throat/platforming at Waterloo won't change, nor will capacity through Wimbeldon etc The article fails to mention that at all.

Would it be enough to allow the handful of peak-time Portsmouth services which currently travel via the New Lines (thus making use of the grade separation at Hampton Court Jn) to run through Woking?

Also has the advantage of a late Portsmouth not hampering down expresses.
 

Bald Rick

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Victoria Arch Bridge (Country side of Woking) is due for replacement/widening in the next few years alongside road remodelling, it will be interesting to see what occurs along side those works.

AIUI the design allows for the future flyover. But this is much further along the funding process.
 

Surreyman

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Victoria Arch Bridge (Country side of Woking) is due for replacement/widening in the next few years alongside road remodelling, it will be interesting to see what occurs along side those works.
The whole block of buildings south of the Victoria Arch Bridge is due for demolition, I assume the road under the bridge is to be widened as part of the plan.
 

Class 170101

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The “flyover work”, as described in the route study, also includes a terminating siding alongside or possibly between the Portsmouth lines, so trains could run through from P5 or new through P6 before returning over the flyover into P1 or P2.

Bottom left corner of the network rail drawing in an earlier thread: https://www.railforums.co.uk/attachments/woking1-jpg.31451/

But why would you keep the Up Guildford where on the diagram (in the attached link) it runs parallel to the flyover?

In terms of capacity could Woking of today take anymore trains on the basis the trains weren't going to Waterloo but instead to Heathrow Southern Railway (and Paddington) upto 4tph to Heathrow, two from Portsmouth and two from Southampton direction?
 

Bald Rick

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In terms of capacity could Woking of today take anymore trains on the basis the trains weren't going to Waterloo but instead to Heathrow Southern Railway (and Paddington) upto 4tph to Heathrow, two from Portsmouth and two from Southampton direction?

No, not in peak times. As I said in post#47 there are actually spare fast line paths to Waterloo, but because of Woking they can’t be used. Hence there are no paths for anything else either.
 

Class 170101

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No, not in peak times. As I said in post#47 there are actually spare fast line paths to Waterloo, but because of Woking they can’t be used. Hence there are no paths for anything else either.

Useful to know because it makes the case stronger for it, I would say, with the 2tph you refer to for Waterloo and 4tph for Heathrow Southern Railway, thats an extra 6tph plus;

I know that Crossrail 2 doesn't reach Woking, however I didn't say that it would be getting Crossrail 2 services. The extra services would be possible through removing the metro services from Waterloo to Crossrail, with (IIRC) 9 paths an hour being possible.

Thats upto 15tph extra even if a flyover could cope with that many in addition.
 

Bald Rick

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Useful to know because it makes the case stronger for it, I would say, with the 2tph you refer to for Waterloo and 4tph for Heathrow Southern Railway, thats an extra 6tph plus;



Thats upto 15tph extra even if a flyover could cope with that many in addition.

It’s +7 paths enabled by Crossrail 2.
 

kevin_roche

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In terms of capacity could Woking of today take anymore trains on the basis the trains weren't going to Waterloo but instead to Heathrow Southern Railway (and Paddington) upto 4tph to Heathrow, two from Portsmouth and two from Southampton direction?

In fact the requirement for the flyover is mentioned in the Network Rail - Southern Rail Access to Heathrow Feasibility Study https://cdn.networkrail.co.uk/wp-co...Rail-Access-to-Heathrow-Feasibility-Study.pdf The study says it is needed in any case so its costs were not included in the Heathrow Feasibility Study analysis.

The enhancements required to accommodate future demand on the SWML as well as also being required for southern rail access are:
• Woking Grade Separation;
• Woking additional platform;
• Basingstoke flyover (only required for southern rail access if Heathrow services go to Basingstoke);
• Guildford station capacity enhancement (only required for southern rail access if Heathrow services go to Guildford).

As these enhancements are required irrespective of southern rail access, their costs have not been included in the appraisals for this scheme. It is important to note that none of these schemes are currently funded.
 

swt_passenger

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But why would you keep the Up Guildford where on the diagram (in the attached link) it runs parallel to the flyover?
I don’t know, maybe it’s redundant normally but allows for extra flexibility during maintenance. Perhaps the final layout will be different though, I suspect the main purpose of the drawing is to show the general location of the flyover line and how it routes the up trains between the existing main slow and main fast.
 
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