Caledonian Sleeper now only providing e-tickets if you book direct through their website

DaveB10780 · 1 Nov 2019

e-tickets are perfect and give many choices of how to present them. You are also spared the hassle of finding a ticket machine and worrying about it printing which is a big bonus. I was most disappointed to have to collect a ticket last week for a mainly Virgin journey that also involved Southern and West Midlands. I find it hard to believe that anybody who buys tickets online does not also have access to a printer if they are concerned about showing the ticket electronically.

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Bletchleyite · 1 Nov 2019

AlterEgo said:
There’s no point in trying to discuss progress here. I could point out dozens of sleeper trains I’ve been on which don’t offer paper ticketing but it wouldn’t serve any purpose.

Though quite a lot of them offer ticketless travel, which means you could write the reference down on the back of your hand in biro and it'd be valid. That won't work with ticket barriers, but I see no reason it couldn't be done for a Sleeper whose boarding process is necessarily very manual.

For a UK hotel, for example, all I generally need to do to check in is say my name.

RLBH · 1 Nov 2019

Bletchleyite said:
Though quite a lot of them offer ticketless travel, which means you could write the reference down on the back of your hand in biro and it'd be valid. That won't work with ticket barriers, but I see no reason it couldn't be done for a Sleeper whose boarding process is necessarily very manual

I actually used to do this when I travelled by Megabus a lot. The only bit of the 'ticket' you actually needed was the booking reference, so rather than print off an A4 sheet for each journey I made a note on some convenient scrap of paper.

Clip · 1 Nov 2019

gray1404 said:
I think that the TOD option should remain free of charge to passengers booking online. There is a cost involved in printing a PDF and not everyone has access to a printer before travelling. If one chooses not to print their ticket but then has to show it on a device which then requires battery throughout the journey. At present the customer can book online and print their ticket before travel and it should stay that way free of charge.

TOD costs money to the TOC to provide though and the cost of popping to a library or even the corner shop to print something out is ten pence. If you can afford the sleeper you can afford that surely?

And you only have to show your ticket once on the sleeper when you board yes?

Bletchleyite · 1 Nov 2019

RLBH said:
I actually used to do this when I travelled by Megabus a lot. The only bit of the 'ticket' you actually needed was the booking reference, so rather than print off an A4 sheet for each journey I made a note on some convenient scrap of paper.

The vast majority of passengers, being of younger generations, just have it on their phone. When I buy train tickets in advance the ToD CTR goes in my Google Calendar, it's not much of a step to just quote that to the guard.

paul1609 · 1 Nov 2019

DaveB10780 said:
e-tickets are perfect and give many choices of how to present them. You are also spared the hassle of finding a ticket machine and worrying about it printing which is a big bonus. I was most disappointed to have to collect a ticket last week for a mainly Virgin journey that also involved Southern and West Midlands. I find it hard to believe that anybody who buys tickets online does not also have access to a printer if they are concerned about showing the ticket electronically.

Its the inability to use e tickets on Cross London journeys as they are not accepted by London Underground thats the issue. I get E tickets for my internal Southern trips down to Portsmouth for Football but was only offered TOD for the cup trip up to Harrogate even though its an advance ticket that requires me to walk across the road from St Pancras to Kings Cross.

yorkie · 1 Nov 2019

paul1609 said:
Its the inability to use e tickets on Cross London journeys as they are not accepted by London Underground thats the issue. I get E tickets for my internal Southern trips down to Portsmouth for Football but was only offered TOD for the cup trip up to Harrogate even though its an advance ticket that requires me to walk across the road from St Pancras to Kings Cross.

I've heard a rumour that TfL will be told to put up with them soon.

gray1404 said:
....My personal view is that electronic tickets should be issued as PDF's...

They are! This is what Caledonian Sleeper are doing. I think your post was a huge misunderstanding.

The problem is that some rogue TOCs are offering tickets in weird, proprietary formats that are not the standard e-ticket barcode format. This is damaging the reputation of e-tickets unfairly and unnecessarily.

There is nothing wrong with actual e-tickets.

gray1404 · 1 Nov 2019

So we've moved away from m tickets that require activation now to e tickets that can be shown on any device or on paper if prefered. I see that as a good thing provided the choice to still have the option of having ones ticket printed still remains and is fee free.

If the costs being charged by retailers to print each others tickets is too high then the customer should not be disadvantaged for that. There's no way it costs more then say 10p in reality for having an already online system retrieve data from a database and print it onto card. The industry needs to start charging each other realistic fees.

At the very least it should always be free to collect your ticket from a TVM of the TOC you book with if fees are such a big issue. I'd happily book on Northern or Virgin if travelling from Liverpool and use one of their machines if I had to but I sincerely hope it doesn't come to that.

yorkie · 1 Nov 2019

gray1404 said:
So we've moved away from m tickets that require activation now to e tickets that can be shown on any device or on paper if prefered. I see that as a good thing provided the choice to still have the option of having ones ticket printed still remains and is fee free.

I am unsure if there is a facility to print tickets for people.

gray1404 said:
If the costs being charged by retailers to print each others tickets is too high then the customer should not be disadvantaged for that. There's no way it costs more then say 10p in reality for having an already online system retrieve data from a database and print it onto card. The industry needs to start charging each other realistic fees.

TVM manufactures charge a fortune, often for poor quality products. TOCs are keen to recoup costs and are happy for costs to be high as most TOCs will gain more in fees than they pay in fees. It really hurts third party retailers though but TOCs won't care about that.

gray1404 said:
At the very least it should always be free to collect your ticket from a TVM of the TOC you book with if fees are such a big issue.

Most retailers don't charge a TOD collection fee, but XC do, presumably because they cannot recoup any of the TOD costs as they do not operate any TVMs.

All this is being swept away by e-tickets anyway.

gray1404 said:
I'd happily book on Northern or Virgin if travelling from Liverpool and use one of their machines if I had to but I sincerely hope it doesn't come to that.

It will come to having to buy an e-ticket.

Haywain · 1 Nov 2019

yorkie said:
It will come to having to buy an e-ticket.

I don’t think that’s really what gray1404 is looking for.

Bletchleyite · 1 Nov 2019

yorkie said:
I've heard a rumour that TfL will be told to put up with them soon.

Realistically it'll only involve fitting barcode readers on gates at main London stations. Use at other stations will be quite low and could be handled manually. One assumes Travelcards would continue to be magstripe, though the saving to TfL of being able to decommission the magstripe readers could be substantial.

radamfi · 1 Nov 2019

Other countries have stopped using TOD long ago, or not even used TOD in the first place. The failure to offer e-tickets for so long even though the technology was available has caused many people to miss trains because they didn't have enough time to pick up tickets from the machine. Or they chose to get on the train anyway, leading to arguments with the guard. People have been inconvenienced by machine malfunction, meaning they have had to buy new tickets at full price on the day, with no seat reservation.

Bletchleyite · 1 Nov 2019

You can still use your reservation provided you know what it is. It's not like anyone else will have it reserved!

yorksrob · 1 Nov 2019

Bletchleyite said:
This forum loves playing in niches. How many people are booking for the Caledonian Sleeper at 8pm on the night of travel who aren't just going to chance their arm and turn up at the station? I'd venture almost nobody - it's typically booked well in advance like a flight, because it fills up like a flight.

I've done a walkup on the Night Riviera, but that's only because reservations are not compulsory in the seats due to significant overcapacity (the reason for that being that the seats are used as a busy local commuter train once it gets to the Westcountry).

There's simply no good reason not to offer the TOD option, other than trying to shoehorn people into operating in a way that is convenient for the industry, rather than the passenger.

gray1404 · 1 Nov 2019

Exactly. Offering TOD ALONGSIDE e-tickets, both at no additional charge, gives the customer choice and that is what should be encouraged.

In fact, the industry may well find that many customers will switch to e-tickets that the overall costs of TOD, in terms of retailers being charged when I customer collects from the TVM that is of a different company, goes down to a level they are happy to absorb it - as they currently do - without the need to even think of starting to charge customers extra for using TOD.

Bletchleyite · 2 Nov 2019

gray1404 said:
Exactly. Offering TOD ALONGSIDE e-tickets, both at no additional charge, gives the customer choice and that is what should be encouraged.

In fact, the industry may well find that many customers will switch to e-tickets that the overall costs of TOD, in terms of retailers being charged when I customer collects from the TVM that is of a different company, goes down to a level they are happy to absorb it - as they currently do - without the need to even think of starting to charge customers extra for using TOD.

But then what of the possibility of abandoning TOD and its costs and complexities entirely? It would save a small fortune.

ainsworth74 · 2 Nov 2019

AlterEgo said:
There’s no point in trying to discuss progress here. I could point out dozens of sleeper trains I’ve been on which don’t offer paper ticketing but it wouldn’t serve any purpose.

I think part of the problem we have when it comes to moving beyond paper ticketing is that the implementation was so botched when we first got going. M-tickets that you have to activate via an app for instance, print @ home tickets that required a pre-nominated form of ID to verify (or even worse had to be presented with the card used to book). I think this instantly had the effect of generating significant resistance to moving beyond the traditional paper ticket because the alternatives were universally dreadful.

I've used e-tickets on the continent and they've been excellent and it appears that our implementation of that is now much closer to how it works for GB ticketing but there's now this hurdle to overcome whereby e-ticketing is instantly viewed with suspicion because the first implementation was just so dreadful.

Wallsendmag · 2 Nov 2019

Bletchleyite said:
Realistically it'll only involve fitting barcode readers on gates at main London stations. Use at other stations will be quite low and could be handled manually. One assumes Travelcards would continue to be magstripe, though the saving to TfL of being able to decommission the magstripe readers could be substantial.

I wouldn't assume anything when it comes to Smart Ticketing.

Wallsendmag · 2 Nov 2019

Bletchleyite said:
But then what of the possibility of abandoning TOD and its costs and complexities entirely? It would save a small fortune.

Not so small.

Bletchleyite · 2 Nov 2019

Wallsendmag said:
Not so small.

Precisely. It's costly and it's a massive faff which causes no end of issues. If it could be binned off entirely it would save the industry a packet.

There would still be a means of purchasing if you didn't have a smartphone or a printer (rather niche if purchasing online to have neither) - purchase at a ticket office or new-generation TVM like Northern's.

Bungle965 · 2 Nov 2019

Wallsendmag said:
DfT policy - ITSO for seasons and Barcode (e-Ticket/ PRT) for everything else.

Apart from VTWC, who are pushing Barcode really for everything including seasons.
Sam

Bungle965 · 2 Nov 2019

DaveB10780 said:
e-tickets are perfect and give many choices of how to present them. You are also spared the hassle of finding a ticket machine and worrying about it printing which is a big bonus. I was most disappointed to have to collect a ticket last week for a mainly Virgin journey that also involved Southern and West Midlands. I find it hard to believe that anybody who buys tickets online does not also have access to a printer if they are concerned about showing the ticket electronically.

Are you able to tell us what journey it was?
If it was for example Manchester to Croydon and was a flexible ticket then you would like you say have no choice but a paper ticket & that is down to TfL refusing to implement barcode readers at their stations.

On one hand it's a frustration, however Ada with an e-ticket takes much longer to operate a ticket gate than if she had a paper ticket. TfL don't want people slowing down the flow of passengers.
Sam

Clip · 2 Nov 2019

Bungle965 said:
Apart from VTWC, who are pushing Barcode really for everything including seasons.
Sam

They wont be around for much longer and it remains to be seen if FT carry on the practice

gray1404 · 2 Nov 2019

I don't see ticket machines disappearing any time soon, let's face it the industry is still closing booking offices, and I see no reason why these can't be linked to the system to continue offering Tod.

I booked several tickets for a journey across Europe September and October and enjoyed using e tickets. I booked one ticket on Trainline Europe as the price as idendtal, fully English interface and no booking fees. They emailed the ticket to me as a PDF and insisted the ticket must be printed out.

However the ticket was clearly issued by the Austran railways system and there were others on board just showing on their phones. I wonder why Trainline are saying it must be printed. Would otherwise have been a fully e ticket trip.

Bletchleyite · 2 Nov 2019

gray1404 said:
I don't see ticket machines disappearing any time soon, let's face it the industry is still closing booking offices, and I see no reason why these can't be linked to the system to continue offering Tod.

The point is that you need to maintain that system, and deal with exceptions (i.e. failures to print and the likes). If you remove ToD, a lot of that goes away.

gray1404 · 2 Nov 2019

Yes but the core job of still maintaining the TVM and the issue of failure to print will still occur.

Wallsendmag · 2 Nov 2019

gray1404 said:
Yes but the core job of still maintaining the TVM and the issue of failure to print will still occur.

Failure to print what?

Bletchleyite · 2 Nov 2019

Failure to print purchases at that TVM (so same TOC) is much easier to sort out. There are also fewer possible causes.

Wallsendmag · 2 Nov 2019

Bletchleyite said:
Failure to print purchases at that TVM (so same TOC) is much easier to sort out. There are also fewer possible causes.

You’re obviously on a different page to us, we are actively looking at the next generations of TVMs which won’t be printing CCST.

Mainline421 · 2 Nov 2019

Royston Vasey said:
Every continental intercity train journey I've taken for quite some time I've had a pdf to print (France, Belgium, Germany, Austria, Switzerland, Eurostar...) Works well as they're easier to handle, can be reprinted or shown on screen if lost. I've no issue with this.

This has not been my experience at all, with SNCF, Eurostar, and Thalys no matter whether on my current smartphone, 2 in 1 tablet, or old smartphone, they've never scanned easily at all. As much as I dislike Eurostar's airline-style disintegrated ticketing one thing they do get right is that you get an e-ticket and can use the booking ref to print a normal ticket at the station, that should have been how it was implemented across the UK for domestic travel.

Wallsendmag said:
You’re obviously on a different page to us, we are actively looking at the next generations of TVMs which won’t be printing CCST.

Now that's concerning if not unexpected. PRTs are hard to carry around for long periods and create enough problems already.

Also for the record I'd have been happy to load the ticket from the OP onto my Smartcard, as that conveniently fits in my wallet without having to rely on keeping my phone charged and working or being at home and using a printer I use maybe twice a year and has been "low toner" for ages now. I don't think reasons being "niche" is an excuse to discontinue them altogether as they're not costing a fortune. I have reserved the Sleeper on the day before (at a station admittedly) and I know of people who have PCs but not smartphones or printers. Even if I do e-tickets are just annoying especially as CS claim everywhere they still offer TOD but seemingly even their telesales don't do this anymore.

Caledonian Sleeper now only providing e-tickets if you book direct through their website

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