Proposed abandonment of Smart Motorways

The_Train · 30 Oct 2019

AndrewE said:
@The_Train: I have experienced the congestion control southbound approaching Brum, and I was quite impressed by its effectiveness.

You've enjoyed better experiences than me then. I would regularly have to give myself 2 hours to complete what should be a 45 minute journey to be on time for work (and even then I was late more than I was on time) and the vast majority of that time was spent crawling between J12 and J10

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gordonthemoron · 30 Oct 2019

The main problem with Smart motorways is they aren't monitored properly. I was driving from MK to Gatwick on the M1 in September, about 2am. Junction 6a (M25) was closed, so there was a temporay speed limit which went from 60 to 40 and finally 20, there wasn't any traffic, what was the point?

OneOffDave · 30 Oct 2019

gordonthemoron said:
The main problem with Smart motorways is they aren't monitored properly. I was driving from MK to Gatwick on the M1 in September, about 2am. Junction 6a (M25) was closed, so there was a temporay speed limit which went from 60 to 40 and finally 20, there wasn't any traffic, what was the point?

20mph limits are usually reserved for stationery vehicles, debris in the road or in one experience I had near MK in 2016 a vehicle travelling on the wrong side. It's highly probable that something had been reported to the Highways Agency and the signs amended while they send Traffic Officers to investigate. This can take a while. Often in the interim, the incident resolves itself, esp for stranded vehicles before the HATOs turn up.

Two things that really bother me about vehicles breaching red 'X's are that they have been covered in the Highway Code since way before I passed my test in 1987 and breaches have resulted in deaths

Bletchleyite · 30 Oct 2019

OneOffDave said:
Two things that really bother me about vehicles breaching red 'X's are that they have been covered in the Highway Code since way before I passed my test in 1987 and breaches have resulted in deaths

I think some people are more familiar with them than others. I grew up with the Mersey Tunnels where they are used, also on the North Wales Coast. If you live in rural East Anglia odds on you've never seen one.

The risk with enforcing them is that people who were taken aback by them (their own fault, but that doesn't matter for the purposes of accident prevention) might make a dangerous manoeuvre into another lane, or worse stop dead, to avoid being flashed. That could of course be better than hitting whatever's stopped, though I think normally they close two lanes for that.

The most dangerous thing I've seen (in Italy, not the UK) is a lower speed limit in lane 1 than lane 2, meaning that to move across you either do so too slowly for the flow or you break the limit in the lane you're in. I believe the UK system can do that but I don't recall seeing it actually do it.

Regarding 20mph, that's set manually, the lowest it can automatically set is I think 40 but may be 50.

The_Train · 30 Oct 2019

What else can a big red X mean other than trouble? As much as I'm not much of a fan of these smart motorways, I don't really buy this whole 'they are too confusing' excuse that people seem to use for failing to drive on them properly. If the sign above you indicates a number then that's the maximum speed you can travel at, if there is a big red X then you need to move out of that lane ASAP, if there is an arrow pointing in a direction then follow it as it's directing you into a safer lane, if it says hard shoulder is for emergency use only then don't use it and if it says use hard shoulder then feel free to move across into it.

If you struggle with any of this, maybe motorway driving just isn't for you!

OneOffDave · 30 Oct 2019

Bletchleyite said:
I think some people are more familiar with them than others. I grew up with the Mersey Tunnels where they are used, also on the North Wales Coast. If you live in rural East Anglia odds on you've never seen one.

The risk with enforcing them is that people who were taken aback by them (their own fault, but that doesn't matter for the purposes of accident prevention) might make a dangerous manoeuvre into another lane, or worse stop dead, to avoid being flashed. That could of course be better than hitting whatever's stopped, though I think normally they close two lanes for that.

The most dangerous thing I've seen (in Italy, not the UK) is a lower speed limit in lane 1 than lane 2, meaning that to move across you either do so too slowly for the flow or you break the limit in the lane you're in. I believe the UK system can do that but I don't recall seeing it actually do it.

Regarding 20mph, that's set manually, the lowest it can automatically set is I think 40 but may be 50.

If you like in rural East Anglia you've never seen a motorway of any description.

The last three times I've seen Red Xs, they have had pre-warnings of the lane closures for three gantries before the X so not exactly sprung upon people unless they aren't actually paying any attention at all.

Last week near the M1/M25 interchange on a 6-lane stretch the limits went 40 30 20 30 40 40 across the lanes due to a stranded vehicle in lane 3. Because of where it was, it wasn't possible to close lanes 1 and 2 as they were the far end of entry slips and the HA didn't have an accurate location of the vehicle. I called them and gave them the nearest marker post which helped.

Bletchleyite · 30 Oct 2019

OneOffDave said:
The last three times I've seen Red Xs, they have had pre-warnings of the lane closures for three gantries before the X so not exactly sprung upon people unless they aren't actually paying any attention at all.

True, but in road safety you do have to deal with people who aren't paying attention. Fine to punish them for that, but if they end up cutting across lanes at the last minute that could cause an accident.

Last week near the M1/M25 interchange on a 6-lane stretch the limits went 40 30 20 30 40 40 across the lanes due to a stranded vehicle in lane 3. Because of where it was, it wasn't possible to close lanes 1 and 2 as they were the far end of entry slips and the HA didn't have an accurate location of the vehicle. I called them and gave them the nearest marker post which helped.

That's really dangerous and confusing. They'd have been better putting 20 across the board and a red X over lane 3 and "STRANDED VEHICLE IN LANE 3" on the text displays.

The_Train · 30 Oct 2019

Bletchleyite said:
That's really dangerous and confusing. They'd have been better putting 20 across the board and a red X over lane 3 and "STRANDED VEHICLE IN LANE 3" on the text displays.

Yeah I have to agree with that. To have different speed limits in different lanes is just crazy and something I've never seen before. Normally all lanes read the same limit. I mean in that situation if you were in a lane where 40 was the speed limit, you'd have to brake down to 30 before you could change lanes which doesn't really equate to safe and sensible driving.

This also counters my points about the motorway not being as confusing as some make out in my previous post :lol:

Greybeard33 · 30 Oct 2019

AndrewE said:
Something we haven't commented on yet is that besides the red X, they also have red wig-wags going. They are mandatory...

I believe the use of the red wig-wags in conjunction with the red X, to indicate a single lane is closed, is confusing and potentially dangerous. In other road traffic contexts, e.g. level crossings and fire stations, flashing red wig-wags mean "Stop!" So on the motorway they should only be used to stop all traffic in all lanes, due to a major incident ahead.

When only one lane is closed, you do not want vehicles stopping in front of the gantry, while traffic is whizzing past in the other lanes!

OneOffDave · 30 Oct 2019

The_Train said:
Yeah I have to agree with that. To have different speed limits in different lanes is just crazy and something I've never seen before. Normally all lanes read the same limit. I mean in that situation if you were in a lane where 40 was the speed limit, you'd have to brake down to 30 before you could change lanes which doesn't really equate to safe and sensible driving.

This also counters my points about the motorway not being as confusing as some make out in my previous post

Given that everything was moving at about 15 anyway it was all academic really

OneOffDave · 30 Oct 2019

Greybeard33 said:
I believe the use of the red wig-wags in conjunction with the red X, to indicate a single lane is closed, is confusing and potentially dangerous. In other road traffic contexts, e.g. level crossings and fire stations, flashing red wig-wags mean "Stop!" So on the motorway they should only be used to stop all traffic in all lanes, due to a major incident ahead.

When only one lane is closed, you do not want vehicles stopping in front of the gantry, while traffic is whizzing past in the other lanes!

On the motorway the red X and the red wig-wags also mean stop. However that does only apply to that lane. If you are driving along and only see it with 20-30m to go and slam on the anchors, the other traffic around you is lucky that you're stopping as you'd definitely be a hazard. In most circumstances, the passing traffic won't be doing full motorway speeds. Has to be much safer than on a 'dumb' motorway where the only rear protection an incident might get is an HATO vehicle with it's rear reds going

AM9 · 30 Oct 2019

Bald Rick said:
Agreed. Similar how hard is it to understand that if there is a speed limit sign lit up above the hard shoulder, and a VMS sign saying ‘use hardhsoulder’, that it is open for traffic. I am regularly the only vehicle in the lane for as far as you can see, whilst lanes 1-3 (or 2-4 if you prefer) are nose to,tail at 40mph.

But that in itself creates a hazard. Quite often, those using a lightly loaded hard shoulder travel faster than those in lane 1. So when somebody in lane one realises that they can move over, there is a risk of a collision. There's no point arguing that people should look for anybody 'undertaking?' them because for decades, motorists have been taught that it is forbidden at speed. There are enough things going on along motorways so adding more workload for no good reason is a stupid idea.

deltic · 30 Oct 2019

Smart motorways are just as safe as any other motorway - hard shoulders are incredibly dangerous places. The problem is the drivers rather than the motorway itself. There needs to be a radical improvement in driving standards and people need to take responsibility for their actions. Running out of fuel and carrying on driving a vehicle which obviously has a problem are some of the commonest issues causing vehicles to come to a stop on the motorway network. Spending some time in a motorway control room and talking to traffic officers is an eye opener.

bramling · 30 Oct 2019

AM9 said:
But that in itself creates a hazard. Quite often, those using a lightly loaded hard shoulder travel faster than those in lane 1. So when somebody in lane one realises that they can move over, there is a risk of a collision. There's no point arguing that people should look for anybody 'undertaking?' them because for decades, motorists have been taught that it is forbidden at speed. There are enough things going on along motorways so adding more workload for no good reason is a stupid idea.

Agreed. Substantial differentials in traffic speed between adjacent lanes is a major cause of accidents, when someone changes from the slower lane to the faster lane without checking for something passing, or misjudging the speed of something approaching.

Sooner or later someone is going to notice that they can use the hard shoulder, and like young children in a sweetshop the temptation of an extra lane is too much to bear, and they move over without making a proper check. Not massively different from those who suddenly decide they want to change lanes to the right, but in this instance worse because visibility to the left is inherently less combined with no expectation of being undertaken.

AndrewE · 30 Oct 2019

bramling said:
Agreed. Substantial differentials in traffic speed between adjacent lanes is a major cause of accidents, when someone changes from the slower lane to the faster lane without checking for something passing, or misjudging the speed of something approaching.

Sooner or later someone is going to notice that they can use the hard shoulder, and like young children in a sweetshop the temptation of an extra lane is too much to bear, and they move over without making a proper check. Not massively different from those who suddenly decide they want to change lanes to the right, but in this instance worse because visibility to the left is inherently less combined with no expectation of being undertaken.

So what happened to "Mirror, Signal, Manoeuvre?" Prosecute them and take their licenses away. Far too many people have them nowadays, many obviously unfit to drive.

bramling · 30 Oct 2019

AndrewE said:
So what happened to "Mirror, Signal, Manoeuvre?" Prosecute them and take their licenses away. Far too many people have them nowadays, many obviously unfit to drive.

All well and good, but a case of slamming the stable door shut after the horse has bolted once they’ve caused an accident. One really doesn’t want to be sweeping along nicely at 40 mph on the hard shoulder just as the penny drops for some patsi that they can move to the left from their at-a-standstill lane.

Same as when there’s a queue on an exit slip road which has backed up onto the motorway. One can have traffic at a standstill in lane 1 with stuff passing at 70 mph in lane 2. Lovely until some twit in lane 1 decides they wish to continue on the motorway after all and makes a botched move into a 70 mph lane from a stand. In that situation I will heavily slow down if in lane 2, but obviously one has to be mindful of what’s going on behind too. Naturally people are too thick to consider why it might not be a good idea to continue charging along.

PeterC · 30 Oct 2019

bramling said:
All well and good, but a case of slamming the stable door shut after the horse has bolted once they’ve caused an accident. One really doesn’t want to be sweeping along nicely at 40 mph on the hard shoulder just as the penny drops for some patsi that they can move to the left from their at-a-standstill lane.

Same as when there’s a queue on an exit slip road which has backed up onto the motorway. One can have traffic at a standstill in lane 1 with stuff passing at 70 mph in lane 2. Lovely until some twit in lane 1 decides they wish to continue on the motorway after all and makes a botched move into a 70 mph lane from a stand. In that situation I will heavily slow down if in lane 2, but obviously one has to be mindful of what’s going on behind too. Naturally people are too thick to consider why it might not be a good idea to continue charging along.

Or when the queue is only in the slip road the driver who stops in lane 1 to push in at the head of the queue.

Bald Rick · 30 Oct 2019

AM9 said:
But that in itself creates a hazard. Quite often, those using a lightly loaded hard shoulder travel faster than those in lane 1. So when somebody in lane one realises that they can move over, there is a risk of a collision. There's no point arguing that people should look for anybody 'undertaking?' them because for decades, motorists have been taught that it is forbidden at speed. There are enough things going on along motorways so adding more workload for no good reason is a stupid idea.

I can see your point, but disagree. If you are on the active hard shoulder, and ‘undertaking’ you need to be very sure that the car you ar eundertking has either seen you, or that you can get through if it starts to move. That is the same principle as in any lane.

Techniquest · 31 Oct 2019

I've been quite fascinated by this thread, as a non-driver and rather infrequent road user.

Smart Motorways are an interesting concept, and I'm all for it personally. My occasional coach trips normally take me on a motorway for at least part of the trip, and certainly do when I venture to London, and typing this post had me realise I actually travel more by coach than by rail these days. The trips earlier this year to Manchester, featuring part of the M6, took me through Smart Motorway operations.

I'm not convinced having no permanent hard shoulder is a good idea, but I also think it's fantastic to have Smart Motorways. I have unpleasant memories of multiple hours of delays on a Birmingham to Glasgow trip several years ago on the M6. So many miles of traffic backlogs...Bailing out at Preston and ripping out the magic plastic for a last minute single to Scotland on the train was a far more appealing idea!

Anyway, before I dive into more nostalgia, if Smart Motorways had been in operation back then being able to use the hard shoulder would certainly have helped! Keeping one of the busiest motorways in the country running smoothly is not an easy task at the best of times, anything that helps keep traffic moving is welcome.

AM9 · 31 Oct 2019

Bald Rick said:
I can see your point, but disagree. If you are on the active hard shoulder, and ‘undertaking’ you need to be very sure that the car you ar eundertking has either seen you, or that you can get through if it starts to move. That is the same principle as in any lane.

The problem is that although lane discipline is generally poor yet rarely prosecuted, using a hard shoulder (conventional motorway) is illegal and and for a hard shoulder to function, access to it as a safe(r) refuge should be unfettered. Most drivers assume that it is and even where its use an an extra lane has been temporarily allowed by active signage, it is unlikely to be the first thought when an unexpected issue arises within a car travelling along the (normal) left hand lane.
Thus we have a situation where an automatic tendency to get to the hard shoulder is conflicting with somebody approaching at maximum current road speed on the 'wrong' side. It's a recipe for an emergency avoiding action and possible consequences arising from that.

underbank · 31 Oct 2019

Interesting to note that no one has mentioned the crazy "smart" motorway "improvements" around Manchester, particularly the M60/M61/M62 merging areas. It took them years to make it a "smart" motorway, but I can't see any improvement nor benefit at all. They didn't even turn the hard shoulder into a carriageway, so no extra capacity. All there is are the overhead gantries with the speed limits/speed cameras which are useless most of the time because it's usually so clogged up, you're average speed is about 10/20 anyway. I fail to see just what the point is - it must have cost millions and caused years of congestion/delays to implement. When the work was being done, I thought it was going to mean a 4th lane to ease the congestion, but no, just speed camera gantries. All that money could have been used to actually solve some of the problems, i.e. junction improvements to relieve the pinch points.

Greybeard33 · 31 Oct 2019

underbank said:
Interesting to note that no one has mentioned the crazy "smart" motorway "improvements" around Manchester, particularly the M60/M61/M62 merging areas. It took them years to make it a "smart" motorway, but I can't see any improvement nor benefit at all. They didn't even turn the hard shoulder into a carriageway, so no extra capacity. All there is are the overhead gantries with the speed limits/speed cameras which are useless most of the time because it's usually so clogged up, you're average speed is about 10/20 anyway. I fail to see just what the point is - it must have cost millions and caused years of congestion/delays to implement. When the work was being done, I thought it was going to mean a 4th lane to ease the congestion, but no, just speed camera gantries. All that money could have been used to actually solve some of the problems, i.e. junction improvements to relieve the pinch points.

The M60 J8-J18 is a "controlled smart motorway", the third variety where the hard shoulder is retained. The variable speed limits are supposed to improve capacity even without hard shoulder running, by smoothing the traffic flow and reducing stop-start bunching. Theoretically the capacity of a road is greatest when all lanes are flowing at 30-50mph; once congestion brings traffic to a stand throughput is reduced.

The adjoining J18-J20 section of the M62 is an all lane running smart motorway, but all lane running was not permitted on the M60 because the exhaust fume pollution already exceeds legal limits in the areas adjacent to the motorway. Two more lanes of traffic would generate even more pollution.

Bald Rick · 31 Oct 2019

Greybeard33 said:
The M60 J8-J18 is a "controlled smart motorway", the third variety where the hard shoulder is retained. The variable speed limits are supposed to improve capacity even without hard shoulder running, by smoothing the traffic flow and reducing stop-start bunching. Theoretically the capacity of a road is greatest when all lanes are flowing at 30-50mph; once congestion brings traffic to a stand throughput is reduced.

The adjoining J18-J20 section of the M62 is an all lane running smart motorway, but all lane running was not permitted on the M60 because the exhaust fume pollution already exceeds legal limits in the areas adjacent to the motorway. Two more lanes of traffic would generate even more pollution.

Interesting re the pollution angle. Is there provision on the gantries for the additional Matrix signs over the hard shoulder for when exhaust pollution becomes less of an issue (ie within the next decade?).

Greybeard33 · 31 Oct 2019

Bald Rick said:
Interesting re the pollution angle. Is there provision on the gantries for the additional Matrix signs over the hard shoulder for when exhaust pollution becomes less of an issue (ie within the next decade?).

There is certainly space on the gantries for additional matrix signs - don't know about wiring provision. But it would be a major redesign/rebuild of the road itself to convert it to all lane running (dynamic hard shoulders are no longer allowed on any new projects). There are multiple closely spaced junctions along the M60 and short sections with no shoulder, particularly the Barton high level bridge over the Ship Canal.

Bikeman78 · 31 Oct 2019

Greybeard33 said:
In case of a tyre blowout or engine failure it is usually possible to pull over to the shoulder, but it may well not be possible to continue another mile to the next refuge layby. There have been some nasty accidents on all lane running smart motorways where a broken down vehicle stopped in the left lane has been hit at 70mph. These would not have happened if there had been a shoulder. In such cases safety is dependent on a human control room operator noticing the incident on CCTV and turning on the signs to reduce the speed limit and close the blocked lane. There is a window of vulnerability before this happens.

Here is an example of it going badly wrong! The lorry driver starts braking barely a second before impact.

Meerkat · 31 Oct 2019

Bit harsh on the trucker - obviously should have braking distance clear but the car in front of the one towing the caravan seems to just stop for no obvious reason.

dcsprior · 2 Nov 2019

The_Train said:
What else can a big red X mean other than trouble?

I could believe that some people could misinterpret then as being an end of restriction or similar.

AndrewE · 3 Nov 2019

dcsprior said:
I could believe that some people could misinterpret then as being an end of restriction or similar.

Then they shouldn't be driving. It's not a Human Right, it's a privilege you are only allowed if you are competent, and a lot more people should lose it.

Ianno87 · 3 Nov 2019

AndrewE said:
Then they shouldn't be driving. It's not a Human Right, it's a privilege you are only allowed if you are competent, and a lot more people should lose it.

That I agree with. And would do wonders for congestion. Win win.

Tetchytyke · 3 Nov 2019

Bikeman78 said:
Here is an example of it going badly wrong!

That's an example of a lorry driver who should have his licence permanently revoked.

Proposed abandonment of Smart Motorways

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